Systemic / Institutional / Societal Racism

[E.H. Ruddock]

My apologies if this has been addressed and is just a goofy little joke at this point (I admit that I am not reading this thread) but why is it called systematic racism in the thread title? The word that's typically used is systemic

RMerica!

[The Argonaut]

You people love extra syllables

[tragabigzanda]

FUCK ICE

[BurtReynolds]

stop the word policing, guys.

[wease]

Be honest, none of you guys knew what the fuck Juneteenth was until like a week ago.

I totally had no idea. I thought Trump just didn’t know how to spell June with a date that ended with teenth.

[Mickey]

You people love extra syllables

I just want to note that I didn't start this thread and thus am not responsible for the title.

[tree_]

Ask Joe

[Bi_3]

Cops are not going out there to kill black citizens or anyone. It's extremely rare, but highly sensationalized, so it gives the impression of being a systemic issue. Again, according to the DOJ, in 2015 there were 53,000,000 police contacts and 1,000 deaths. Cops are not a death threat to anyone.

These stats are distinct from the historical use of police violence to control black citizens and the resulting culture of distrust in the police and law enforcement institutions. That is very real and still exists in many places today in the form biased policing and brutality... but the idea that cops are out there murdering black people (or really, anyone) is anecdotal and not backed up by reality.

How do we make sure that this bias & brutality is dealt with if we don't make it known as loudly & clearly as possible? Are we gonna post facts on community forums and stand silently off the side of the road and hold signs up? I don't think that plan will work. It's not sensationalism to the people today who live it. It's about time.

I don't know, but I would start with these two:

1.) Reparations. The average difference in lifetime earnings between white and black people is around $100K, so give each non-immigrant citizen who identifies as black a $10k/year tax credit for ten years in a row. This would make it far more affordable than a multi-trillion chunk at once. For those who aren't old enough to file, the credit starts after their first filing. Have a eligibility cut-off of 12 months after the law passes to cover pregnant women.

2.) Trigger warning: Gentrification. Lead (Pb) is still a major problem for black communities and it's effects are easily measurable. The government should set a goal of the country being lead-free by 2040 through rebuilding and renovating existing residential structures and incentive new businesses to move in.

These are ideas worth exploring, for sure. I'm just not sure how we get from where we are now, to a world where real policies are put in place and have time to mend things without people demanding them. And by demanding them, I mean out on the streets actually demanding them. There's plenty of takes out there explaining how these protests are going too far and may be hurting their cause, but their cause is police brutality/reform and all of a sudden local/state governments are taking it seriously and open to change.

How can they care about one thing when in fact there are also other things??

[tree_]

I mean, if the result the movement wants is "no more black people being shot or arrested", it's set up to fail. And when you have loud voices threatening, with little to no push-back, to REALLY fuck shit up if one more black person gets unfairly treated by a bad cop and gets caught on camera, the movement looks stupid, because this is impossible.

[Mickey]

Cops are not going out there to kill black citizens or anyone. It's extremely rare, but highly sensationalized, so it gives the impression of being a systemic issue. Again, according to the DOJ, in 2015 there were 53,000,000 police contacts and 1,000 deaths. Cops are not a death threat to anyone.

These stats are distinct from the historical use of police violence to control black citizens and the resulting culture of distrust in the police and law enforcement institutions. That is very real and still exists in many places today in the form biased policing and brutality... but the idea that cops are out there murdering black people (or really, anyone) is anecdotal and not backed up by reality.

How do we make sure that this bias & brutality is dealt with if we don't make it known as loudly & clearly as possible? Are we gonna post facts on community forums and stand silently off the side of the road and hold signs up? I don't think that plan will work. It's not sensationalism to the people today who live it. It's about time.

I don't know, but I would start with these two:

1.) Reparations. The average difference in lifetime earnings between white and black people is around $100K, so give each non-immigrant citizen who identifies as black a $10k/year tax credit for ten years in a row. This would make it far more affordable than a multi-trillion chunk at once. For those who aren't old enough to file, the credit starts after their first filing. Have a eligibility cut-off of 12 months after the law passes to cover pregnant women.

2.) Trigger warning: Gentrification. Lead (Pb) is still a major problem for black communities and it's effects are easily measurable. The government should set a goal of the country being lead-free by 2040 through rebuilding and renovating existing residential structures and incentive new businesses to move in.

These are ideas worth exploring, for sure. I'm just not sure how we get from where we are now, to a world where real policies are put in place and have time to mend things without people demanding them. And by demanding them, I mean out on the streets actually demanding them. There's plenty of takes out there explaining how these protests are going too far and may be hurting their cause, but their cause is police brutality/reform and all of a sudden local/state governments are taking it seriously and open to change.

How can they care about one thing when in fact there are also other things??

Wait but you're the one suggesting they should care about other things. Lead paint is definitely a problem in urban housing, which means it's a problem for black communities, but the link between that and police brutality is nebulous. Moreover, and to your original post, even if police shootings are rare, it makes sense to use them as a high profile example of the kind of brutality and bias non-whites are subjected to by the police *daily* but which is much harder to document and "prove," especially to white Americans who think like tree_.

[tree_]

Cops are not going out there to kill black citizens or anyone. It's extremely rare, but highly sensationalized, so it gives the impression of being a systemic issue. Again, according to the DOJ, in 2015 there were 53,000,000 police contacts and 1,000 deaths. Cops are not a death threat to anyone.

These stats are distinct from the historical use of police violence to control black citizens and the resulting culture of distrust in the police and law enforcement institutions. That is very real and still exists in many places today in the form biased policing and brutality... but the idea that cops are out there murdering black people (or really, anyone) is anecdotal and not backed up by reality.

How do we make sure that this bias & brutality is dealt with if we don't make it known as loudly & clearly as possible? Are we gonna post facts on community forums and stand silently off the side of the road and hold signs up? I don't think that plan will work. It's not sensationalism to the people today who live it. It's about time.

I don't know, but I would start with these two:

1.) Reparations. The average difference in lifetime earnings between white and black people is around $100K, so give each non-immigrant citizen who identifies as black a $10k/year tax credit for ten years in a row. This would make it far more affordable than a multi-trillion chunk at once. For those who aren't old enough to file, the credit starts after their first filing. Have a eligibility cut-off of 12 months after the law passes to cover pregnant women.

2.) Trigger warning: Gentrification. Lead (Pb) is still a major problem for black communities and it's effects are easily measurable. The government should set a goal of the country being lead-free by 2040 through rebuilding and renovating existing residential structures and incentive new businesses to move in.

These are ideas worth exploring, for sure. I'm just not sure how we get from where we are now, to a world where real policies are put in place and have time to mend things without people demanding them. And by demanding them, I mean out on the streets actually demanding them. There's plenty of takes out there explaining how these protests are going too far and may be hurting their cause, but their cause is police brutality/reform and all of a sudden local/state governments are taking it seriously and open to change.

How can they care about one thing when in fact there are also other things??

Wait but you're the one suggesting they should care about other things. Lead paint is definitely a problem in urban housing, which means it's a problem for black communities, but the link between that and police brutality is nebulous. Moreover, and to your original post, even if police shootings are rare, it makes sense to use them as a high profile example of the kind of brutality and bias non-whites are subjected to by the police *daily* but which is much harder to document and "prove," especially to white Americans who think like tree_.

White people are actually shot BY POLICE at a higher rate than non-whites. The biggest threats to black people are other black people. When you lie, it makes your movement look bad.

[tree_]

For Mickey:

https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/file ... _fryer.pdf

In stark contrast to non-lethal uses of force, we find no racial differences in officer-involved
shootings on either the extensive or intensive margins. Using data from Houston, Texas – where
we have both officer-involved shootings and a randomly chosen set of potential interactions with
police where lethal force may have been justified – we find, in the raw data, that blacks are 23.8
percent less likely to be shot at by police relative to whites. Hispanics are 8.5 percent less likely.
Both coefficients are statistically insignificant. Adding controls for civilian demographics, officer
demographics, encounter characteristics, type of weapon civilian was carrying, and year fixed effects,
the black (resp. Hispanic) coefficient is 0.924 (0.417) (resp. 1.256 (0.595)). These coefficients are
remarkably robust across alternative empirical specifications and subsets of the data. Partitioning
the data in myriad ways, we find no evidence of racial discrimination in officer-involved shootings.
Investigating the intensive margin – the timing of shootings or how many bullets were discharged
in the endeavor – there are no detectable racial differences.5

[digster]

Cops are not going out there to kill black citizens or anyone. It's extremely rare, but highly sensationalized, so it gives the impression of being a systemic issue. Again, according to the DOJ, in 2015 there were 53,000,000 police contacts and 1,000 deaths. Cops are not a death threat to anyone.

These stats are distinct from the historical use of police violence to control black citizens and the resulting culture of distrust in the police and law enforcement institutions. That is very real and still exists in many places today in the form biased policing and brutality... but the idea that cops are out there murdering black people (or really, anyone) is anecdotal and not backed up by reality.

How do we make sure that this bias & brutality is dealt with if we don't make it known as loudly & clearly as possible? Are we gonna post facts on community forums and stand silently off the side of the road and hold signs up? I don't think that plan will work. It's not sensationalism to the people today who live it. It's about time.

I don't know, but I would start with these two:

1.) Reparations. The average difference in lifetime earnings between white and black people is around $100K, so give each non-immigrant citizen who identifies as black a $10k/year tax credit for ten years in a row. This would make it far more affordable than a multi-trillion chunk at once. For those who aren't old enough to file, the credit starts after their first filing. Have a eligibility cut-off of 12 months after the law passes to cover pregnant women.

2.) Trigger warning: Gentrification. Lead (Pb) is still a major problem for black communities and it's effects are easily measurable. The government should set a goal of the country being lead-free by 2040 through rebuilding and renovating existing residential structures and incentive new businesses to move in.

These are ideas worth exploring, for sure. I'm just not sure how we get from where we are now, to a world where real policies are put in place and have time to mend things without people demanding them. And by demanding them, I mean out on the streets actually demanding them. There's plenty of takes out there explaining how these protests are going too far and may be hurting their cause, but their cause is police brutality/reform and all of a sudden local/state governments are taking it seriously and open to change.

How can they care about one thing when in fact there are also other things??

Wait but you're the one suggesting they should care about other things. Lead paint is definitely a problem in urban housing, which means it's a problem for black communities, but the link between that and police brutality is nebulous. Moreover, and to your original post, even if police shootings are rare, it makes sense to use them as a high profile example of the kind of brutality and bias non-whites are subjected to by the police *daily* but which is much harder to document and "prove," especially to white Americans who think like tree_.

Yes, it doesn't seem all that surprising to me that police shootings would happen at a massively lower incidence compared to other issues of police misconduct or inherent bias. Killing someone is quite literally the most power a police officer is afforded by the state over citizens; it doesn't seem odd, nor does it seem to prove anything, that it would be comparatively rare to the other criminal justice problems protesters are raising.

[tree_]

Cops are not going out there to kill black citizens or anyone. It's extremely rare, but highly sensationalized, so it gives the impression of being a systemic issue. Again, according to the DOJ, in 2015 there were 53,000,000 police contacts and 1,000 deaths. Cops are not a death threat to anyone.

These stats are distinct from the historical use of police violence to control black citizens and the resulting culture of distrust in the police and law enforcement institutions. That is very real and still exists in many places today in the form biased policing and brutality... but the idea that cops are out there murdering black people (or really, anyone) is anecdotal and not backed up by reality.

How do we make sure that this bias & brutality is dealt with if we don't make it known as loudly & clearly as possible? Are we gonna post facts on community forums and stand silently off the side of the road and hold signs up? I don't think that plan will work. It's not sensationalism to the people today who live it. It's about time.

I don't know, but I would start with these two:

1.) Reparations. The average difference in lifetime earnings between white and black people is around $100K, so give each non-immigrant citizen who identifies as black a $10k/year tax credit for ten years in a row. This would make it far more affordable than a multi-trillion chunk at once. For those who aren't old enough to file, the credit starts after their first filing. Have a eligibility cut-off of 12 months after the law passes to cover pregnant women.

2.) Trigger warning: Gentrification. Lead (Pb) is still a major problem for black communities and it's effects are easily measurable. The government should set a goal of the country being lead-free by 2040 through rebuilding and renovating existing residential structures and incentive new businesses to move in.

These are ideas worth exploring, for sure. I'm just not sure how we get from where we are now, to a world where real policies are put in place and have time to mend things without people demanding them. And by demanding them, I mean out on the streets actually demanding them. There's plenty of takes out there explaining how these protests are going too far and may be hurting their cause, but their cause is police brutality/reform and all of a sudden local/state governments are taking it seriously and open to change.

How can they care about one thing when in fact there are also other things??

Wait but you're the one suggesting they should care about other things. Lead paint is definitely a problem in urban housing, which means it's a problem for black communities, but the link between that and police brutality is nebulous. Moreover, and to your original post, even if police shootings are rare, it makes sense to use them as a high profile example of the kind of brutality and bias non-whites are subjected to by the police *daily* but which is much harder to document and "prove," especially to white Americans who think like tree_.

Yes, it doesn't seem all that surprising to me that police shootings would happen at a massively lower incidence compared to other issues of police misconduct or inherent bias. Killing someone is quite literally the most power a police officer is afforded by the state over citizens; it doesn't seem odd, nor does it seem to prove anything, that it would be comparatively rare to the other criminal justice problems protesters are raising.

What are these? All I hear in the news is cops are hunting blacks in the streets.

[Bi_3]

Cops are not going out there to kill black citizens or anyone. It's extremely rare, but highly sensationalized, so it gives the impression of being a systemic issue. Again, according to the DOJ, in 2015 there were 53,000,000 police contacts and 1,000 deaths. Cops are not a death threat to anyone.

These stats are distinct from the historical use of police violence to control black citizens and the resulting culture of distrust in the police and law enforcement institutions. That is very real and still exists in many places today in the form biased policing and brutality... but the idea that cops are out there murdering black people (or really, anyone) is anecdotal and not backed up by reality.

How do we make sure that this bias & brutality is dealt with if we don't make it known as loudly & clearly as possible? Are we gonna post facts on community forums and stand silently off the side of the road and hold signs up? I don't think that plan will work. It's not sensationalism to the people today who live it. It's about time.

I don't know, but I would start with these two:

1.) Reparations. The average difference in lifetime earnings between white and black people is around $100K, so give each non-immigrant citizen who identifies as black a $10k/year tax credit for ten years in a row. This would make it far more affordable than a multi-trillion chunk at once. For those who aren't old enough to file, the credit starts after their first filing. Have a eligibility cut-off of 12 months after the law passes to cover pregnant women.

2.) Trigger warning: Gentrification. Lead (Pb) is still a major problem for black communities and it's effects are easily measurable. The government should set a goal of the country being lead-free by 2040 through rebuilding and renovating existing residential structures and incentive new businesses to move in.

These are ideas worth exploring, for sure. I'm just not sure how we get from where we are now, to a world where real policies are put in place and have time to mend things without people demanding them. And by demanding them, I mean out on the streets actually demanding them. There's plenty of takes out there explaining how these protests are going too far and may be hurting their cause, but their cause is police brutality/reform and all of a sudden local/state governments are taking it seriously and open to change.

How can they care about one thing when in fact there are also other things??

Wait but you're the one suggesting they should care about other things. Lead paint is definitely a problem in urban housing, which means it's a problem for black communities, but the link between that and police brutality is nebulous. Moreover, and to your original post, even if police shootings are rare, it makes sense to use them as a high profile example of the kind of brutality and bias non-whites are subjected to by the police *daily* but which is much harder to document and "prove," especially to white Americans who think like tree_.

The link between lead (not just lead paint) and crime cannot be proven, nothing sociological can be because we lack an adequate control group or the ability to replicate, but: https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/ ... -for-2018/



But I disagree with the idea of using rare events to prove the existance of a common event. If the phenomenon is common, evidence should be easily obtained. If the phenomenon feels common that doesnt make it so.

Only about 1 in 20 non-whites claim police were aggressors in their most recent contacts:



That' still too high, I am not saying it isnt, but as a sweeping judgement about police how legitimate is it to lump the 95% of good contacts in with the 5% of bad?

[digster]

I'm not sure where that data is coming from, but speaking to it, I would absolutely not like the odds if the plane I was on had a 1 in 20 chance of going down. In every 20 interactions with police, data indicates that one of those interactions will lead to a use of force, assault, potentially unjustified arrest, or worse? That's horrifying.

[tree_]

I don't think you're looking at the numbers correctly.

[Bi_3]

I'm not sure where that data is coming from, but speaking to it, I would absolutely not like the odds if the plane I was on had a 1 in 20 chance of going down. In every 20 interactions with police, data indicates that one of those interactions will lead to a use of force, assault, potentially unjustified arrest, or worse? That's horrifying.

Table 18

[tree_]

You have to take into account the sorts of interactions which are actually warranted.

Unjustified threats of force are a different percentage altogether.

[digster]

I'm not sure where that data is coming from, but speaking to it, I would absolutely not like the odds if the plane I was on had a 1 in 20 chance of going down. In every 20 interactions with police, data indicates that one of those interactions will lead to a use of force, assault, potentially unjustified arrest, or worse? That's horrifying.

Table 18

Ah, thanks. There was no way I was seeing that without my glasses.