Red Mosquito

B wrote:Warren's poor handling of her heritage doesn't forgive Trump's racist mocking of he, Liz Cheney. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html

Also, she DOES have Indian heritage, so I don't see why she shouldn't mark it on forms. Her big mistake was getting baited into that stupid test.

That “stupid test” that’s really the only thing substantiating her claim of Native American ancestry? Shouldn’t that have helped her cause?

Her simply making the claim that she had Native American ancestors somewhere along the way due to family lore is one thing, and probably not that big a deal (think of the commercials where someone says “my whole life I was told I was German but the DNA test says I’m actually English”). It happens, we’re all mutts for the most part anymore. But writing it as her race on an official form is different. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe EW was raised in a tribal environment, or active in Native American causes or really had any connection to Native Americans at all.

If "erroneously claimed Native American heritage while getting little to no benefit from that claim" is the worst thing you can say about someone, that person is alright in my book.

cutuphalfdead wrote:If "erroneously claimed Native American heritage while getting little to no benefit from that claim" is the worst thing you can say about someone, that person is alright in my book.

One person could view it that way, while another could view it as attempting to co-opt an identity or heritage that you had no real claim to. Especially while not truly “identifying” with that heritage by taking part in their culture or activities. Sorry but I have a soft spot for the indigenous people of this country who endured genocide at the hands of white people. If you want to make claim to that heritage it’s not something you should casually throw around.
TL;DR:
Simply having a slice of Native ancestry does not a Native American make.

While I all for mocking those who think identity politics are anything but evil, the Pocahontas thing is tired and dumb.

Team Ara. Race is a social construct, and Warren fucked up by trying to make it anything but that.

Green Habit wrote:Team Ara. Race is a social construct, and Warren fucked up by trying to make it anything but that.

meatwad wrote:Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe EW was raised in a tribal environment, or active in Native American causes or really had any connection to Native Americans at all.

Did the form ask if she was immersed in Indian culture during her upbringing or did it ask if she had Indian heritage?

She filled out paperwork appropriately, and should have ignored Trump's racist attacks. Releasing those results just opened her up to attacks. Especially now that she's had to apologise to a tribe.

B wrote:

meatwad wrote:Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe EW was raised in a tribal environment, or active in Native American causes or really had any connection to Native Americans at all.

Did the form ask if she was immersed in Indian culture during her upbringing or did it ask if she had Indian heritage?

She filled out paperwork appropriately, and should have ignored Trump's racist attacks. Releasing those results just opened her up to attacks. Especially now that she's had to apologise to a tribe.

Who's talking about Trump here? He has nothing to do with things she did and said years ago.

The real question here is, "Why did releasing DNA results verifying that she indeed had some NA ancestry open her up to attacks?" Because normally one would think that someone proving their case should have the opposite effect, right?

The answer is because it was a ridiculous claim to begin with, not to mention even the appearance of claiming that ancestry could imply that she was looking for special treatment as a protected minority class. The DNA test made it worse because it showed just how little Native American ancestry she really had, thereby enforcing everyone's opinion that wow, she really doesn't look Native American, never identified with a tribe, never sought to become involved with anything to do with being Native American, etc. So whatever may have been going through her mind at the time she checked that box, it comes off looking much more like someone trying to co-opt an identity that she has no right to. For what benefit, I don't know.

I'm Armenian on my father's side and European on my mother's side (Irish mostly). If somewhere along the way my dad had told me some family story that my great-great grandfather had a Japanese wife, I wouldn't start checking Asian when asked for my race. Not only because I didn't have any sort of proof that I did perhaps have some Asian ancestor, but because nothing about my family has ever had anything to do with Japanese culture. You can't just co-opt it like that.

Here's some insight on what it takes to officially establish oneself as a Native American. Spoiler alert: it takes a lot more than a family story. And a DNA test (which is meaningless to the process).

https://www.bia.gov/sites/bia_prod.open ... cestry.pdf

I really wish we would start using the term First Nations instead of Native American. It's really more appropriate.

meatwad wrote:The real question here is, "Why did releasing DNA results verifying that she indeed had some NA ancestry open her up to attacks?" Because normally one would think that someone proving their case should have the opposite effect, right?

She let Trump pull her into a game. There was no win. Silence on the issue was the only way to go.

You especially don't announce that your great, great, great, great grandparent may have been Indian, and now Trump owes a bunch of money to charity. She supposedly has been an advocate for American Indians, but didn't know that move was going to piss off the Cherokee Nation?

As an actual white Hispanic I was always torn between those two choices on tests/forms. I can't imagine myself as a youngster with my 23&me results at hand. I'd have to write in "all except Scandinavian and Russian." Which would be silly, of course.

I like Warren and she is one of my top choices for 2020, but this issue was her own doing. Maybe race is a social construct, maybe none of this matters. But I would expect people to take me less seriously if I called myself black because 0.8% of my dna is from West Africa, and then kept defending it. People do way worse things but this is a serious head-scratcher and I can't wrap my head around why she thought people would go along.

Ultimately it was a mistake to play at Trump’s level. In case everyone has missed all of the last three years, we should know that when it comes to name calling, Trump makes his stick because his followers are willing to go anywhere with him without fear of consequence or truth, wherein anyone else just gets pulled into a vortex of negativity and disappears.

When prodded by media about Trump and his tactics, candidates are just better off saying “the Office of the President is for grown ups and should be staffed by a president who is mature enough to handle it. I will not respond to his insults because he hasn’t demonstrated the capacity or maturity of a grown up since he has taken office. Let the voters decide whether they want four more of the last four years.”

Is it OK if I find both EW and DJT’s actions to be wrong?

liebzz wrote:Ultimately it was a mistake to play at Trump’s level. In case everyone has missed all of the last three years, we should know that when it comes to name calling, Trump makes his stick because his followers are willing to go anywhere with him without fear of consequence or truth, wherein anyone else just gets pulled into a vortex of negativity and disappears.

When prodded by media about Trump and his tactics, candidates are just better off saying “the Office of the President is for grown ups and should be staffed by a president who is mature enough to handle it. I will not respond to his insults because he hasn’t demonstrated the capacity or maturity of a grown up since he has taken office. Let the voters decide whether they want four more of the last four years.”

To be fair, since the DNA test Warren's message discipline has been fantastic.

Reasonable people can understand Warren's mistake but the electorate isn't reasonable. The Pocahontas thing as goofy as it may be is devastating. She ain't gonna make it.

bada wrote:Reasonable people can understand Warren's mistake but the electorate isn't reasonable. The Pocahontas thing as goofy as it may be is devastating. She ain't gonna make it.

I think with the field as crowded as it is, it is hard to tell but likely this will come back to bite her because losing that PR battle will stick in people’s mind and make them think she can’t win.

Once you apologize, you have lost.

bart wrote:Once you apologize, you have lost.

As much as I am a proponent of doing "the right thing" in politics. I can't argue with that.

Since chud hasn't chimed in to mention Bill Weld, I assume he is dead.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ho ... ry-twitter