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Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 1:36 am
by McParadigm
washing machine wrote:I think the key here is family. It helps me understand the "fetishism" in context, and by proxy, the average dues paying NRA member. The evil that is the NRA is an abstract to these people, I think. The community is the thing for them. This is something that is literally passed down from generations, like a tradition understood and cherished. And it all comes back to family.
I partially agree with this. I think what you're doing is recognizing a community bonding experience happening live and in front of you, and using that to consider the gun community and its culture outside the scope of the current political collision. I know that community exists. I grew up surrounded by it, and I think it is often very supportive and warm to fellow members. All of the men I would describe as role models growing up were gun owners.
But romanticization can become condescension very quickly, when it requires you to narrow how much of a person you're willing to see. And you are talking about NRA members at an NRA convention. It isn't abstract to them. That's impossible. The organization is too loud, effortful, and singular in its fixations. The real world ramifications of the status quo it protects are too present and horrific. It would be an insult to their intelligence to divorce NRA members that completely from the context of their own lives.
The other thing is: the firearms community exists outside the scope of the NRA. You can engage one without belonging to the other.
End of the day, it's not a Jimmy Buffett concert. There are two scenarios that put you in an NRA convention in 2022: one where you support the NRA's attitudes and efforts....and one where you do not, but are willing to buy in anyways if it gets you more of that community. It's not demonizing these folks to admit that. People are three dimensional. They can be kind, caring, champions of their community and also be willing to look the other way on a community leader who steals dues money, or policies they know cause harm, in order to maintain the comfort of that community. Both these things can be true.
I understand the mental health/broken home factor republicans talk about when something like this happens.
Mental health care in the United States should be free, destigmatized, and readily accessible to all. Nothing less than that is going to make it a partial solution to this trend of violence. I'm all for it.
Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 1:49 am
by elliseamos
Pg. 266: posted about background checks
Pg. 267: discussed mandated counseling for abortions & *semi-autos
Pg. 268: mentioned tyrannical gov. as a reason for ARs, agreed that 3d printing means guns will always be around, decided arguing on rm wouldn't change anything, quoted Diane Feinstein
Pg. 269: used Afghanistan & Revolutionary Wars as example of David "frustrating" goliath, said hunting rifles aren't good for home defense, and that valuing shooting as a hobby over human life shouldn't be discussed
Pg. 270: suggested a nap
Pg. 271: some cop jokes, advocated for raising the age for ARs if voting age goes up too
"Fire"
None of it answers my question.
Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 1:51 am
by macphisto
Great recap!
What was your question again?
Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 2:00 am
by elliseamos
elliseamos wrote:I don't really want to get into it (bc it's so far off track from a meaningful conversation)... BUT...
To those saying it's why we need guns:
How does an overthrow of the tyrannical government happen?
A group says this area is ours and we're in charge? You'd get Waco or Ruby Ridge. Done. No match. People have proven time and time again they'll follow orders.
A broader conflict in multiple places simultaneously? Well, good luck keeping it a secret, but even if that could somehow happen, still doesn't seem like ARs are much match against bombs and tanks on specific locations. Again, the person dropping bombs from a drone/plane or firing rounds through buildings will follow orders.
The conflict comes from within! The soldiers would turn on their superiors! Then they'd control equally lethal/destructive means and make it a real battle!
So why do you, civilian, need the AR if the person that tips the scale is the person (on your side against tyranny) already on a base?
Again, the weapon can be military grade and have no place in a residential community AND be no match for a conflict against our nation's military.
Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 2:04 am
by verb_to_trust
Can we get voter ID if we do some of this gun stuff?
Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 2:06 am
by macphisto
I don't really want to get into it (bc it's so far off track from a meaningful conversation)
Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 2:13 am
by verb_to_trust
I'll answer. The overthrow of a tyrannical government happens with the help of a non tyrannical world power. Which is why we can never fall to tyranny. We'd be on our own.
Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 2:41 am
by spike
macphisto wrote:I don't really want to get into it (bc it's so far off track from a meaningful conversation)
Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 3:40 am
by elliseamos
Crickets. Unless verbs response is supposed to explain something, which I'm failing to see.
Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 12:25 pm
by warehouse
macphisto wrote:I don't really want to get into it (bc it's so far off track from a meaningful conversation)
then don't bring it up. over throwing a tyrannical US gov't is so far off track from meaningful conversation around gun rights, it's pointless to even entertain this fantasy
Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 12:29 pm
by Bammer
Lol at the idea of gun community. Imagine people remembering you as “owned a gun.” What a fantastic identity to build one’s life around. Congratulations. Wow. Impressive.
Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 12:31 pm
by warehouse
"Fierce defender of the 2nd Amendment"
Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 12:37 pm
by Bammer
Ted Cruz says “now is not the time” to give in to panic and fear. Seems to me this crowd lives in a constant state of panic and fear.
Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 12:58 pm
by E.H. Ruddock
What crowd is that, bammer? The community in Texas that just lost 21 people?
Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 1:02 pm
by Bammer
E.H. Ruddock wrote:What crowd is that, bammer? The community in Texas that just lost 21 people?
No, the fierce defenders of the second amendment who think background checks equate to the gub’mint barging into their houses and confiscating their guns.
Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 1:20 pm
by elliseamos
warehouse wrote:macphisto wrote:I don't really want to get into it (bc it's so far off track from a meaningful conversation)
then don't bring it up. over throwing a tyrannical US gov't is so far off track from meaningful conversation around gun rights, it's pointless to even entertain this fantasy
He's quoting me and my reluctance to bring it up.
BUT...
When I actually tried to engage this pro-AR argument (and Burt & others have backed away into the hedge here, too), he deflects, ignores, shitposts, and responds to everyone else.
I will keep bringing it up now.
Explain to me, anyone, how citizens having ARs would actually prevent a tyrannical government? I want to try and see it and understand it. I want to try and learn something of your opinion that these guns are necessary in our society..
It was the #1 reason Mac listed in response to "why people should be allowed to have them". But when asked to explain it beyond "to defend ourselves against tyranny" there is:
Crickets.
Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 1:32 pm
by macphisto
Historically, haven’t armed revolutions have been slightly more effective than unarmed revolutions? I believe the founding fathers were some smart mfers who knew what they were doing, and I’m not interested in discussing it further.
Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 1:34 pm
by macphisto
warehouse wrote:"Fierce defender of the 2nd Amendment"
“Beloved RMer” is how I want to be remembered.
Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 1:39 pm
by Bammer
macphisto wrote:I’m not interested in discussing it further.
You can have your opinion and whatnot, but this approach is 100% hack. Come on, man.
Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Sat May 28, 2022 2:10 pm
by McParadigm
Historically, land armies that fought in standing line formation were more effective than those who didn’t. If it worked then, it can work now. I will not be taking questions.