Film: The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug (2013)

[dimejinky99]

I liked AUJ more after having seen the extended edition but I liked it even more having seen DOS

[stip]

Okay, I just finished watching this for the second time. A few thoughts

1: I THINK the Laketown stuff probably has to be there. I'm reserving the right to take take that back based on how the next movie works out, but I think we need to be somewhat concerned about the town and the people in it (Bard's family at least) for us to care that smaug is coming to destroy it. If anything a bit more time in laketown would have helped set this up further, but you gotta cut something. I'm assuming there is more in the extended edition.


2. I know some people criticized this, but I really like the showdown between gandalf and Sauron. The way they did the magic, the contest of wills, the idea of sauron as an incorporeal manifestation of evil. I greatly prefer this to the eye sitting on top of a tower in LTOR.

3. I am pretty much totally fine with the smaug/dwarf sequence at the end, and don't think it ruins Smaug at all. It may enhance him. It makes it clear just how powerful he is, how unstoppable. The dwarves don't make him look weak because there is simply no way they can hurt him. Just harass him. He comes across as basically invincible. You understand how one dragon could have destroyed an entire dwarven kingdom. It's true he has some issues actually killing any of the dwarves, but it is like swatting a mosquito. He's built to kill great masses, not quick individuals. It doesn't matter that they can outmanuever him (and is that unreasonable) because they can't hurt him.

Given the scrooge mcduck levels of wealth just hanging around there I find it totally plausible that the dwarves had created a mold for a gigantic golden statue of their king. It makes sense that Smaug would be hypnotized by it, and trying to drown/burn smaug in it seems reasonable--I mean what else are they going to do. Of course it doesn't work, but it was worth a shot. Yes, he breathes fire. Maybe this is hotter than him. I think if we're debating dragon physiology we've kind of lost the plot.

And yes, he seems less intelligent, more of a rampaging elemental force than a sinister mastermind. But it is fairly well established in general lore about dragons (much of which comes from this book) that they are easy to flatter and manipulate despite their intelligence. They are desperate for courtiers. That's why Bilbo almost gets away with it despite the utter transparency of what he's doing (Smaug compliments him on his nice manners, quite sincerely it seems). Losing his cool over the return of an ancient enemy, one who might threaten his horde, seems totally reasonable .


This all worked for me. It's an exciting sequence, and a suitable climax to the second film

[McParadigm]

1: I THINK the Laketown stuff probably has to be there....I think we need to be somewhat concerned about the town and the people in it (Bard's family at least) for us to care that smaug is coming to destroy it.

That's a pretty reasonable argument for including the town. However, what's worth debating is whether or not they achieved that end....whether or not they succeeded in making us care. Or, whether or not they should have been able to do so in a more economic or fluid manner than they did.

I know some people criticized this, but I really like the showdown between gandalf and Sauron. The way they did the magic, the contest of wills, the idea of sauron as an incorporeal manifestation of evil. I greatly prefer this to the eye sitting on top of a tower in LTOR.

When the confrontation finally happened, it looked like they had 2 seconds of footage of Gandalf making his u-no-pass face, and they just kept replaying it.

Again, regardless of the function of the scene, I don't think this was the most impactful way they could have handled it. And, because the dwarf side of the story was so overburdened with additions, this whole business seemed oddly detached and compartmentalized. It was a half step away from feeling like a commercial break.

I still vote that they should have kept it out of the movie (heaven knows Gandalf is pretty much the king of "we are going on a very dangerous mission but not me I've got shit to do so later you pussies") and included the Gandalf footage in the DVD release as a separate mini-story. "Gandalf Actually Does Something, Episode I." It would have trimmed this movie out of the Big and Tall stores, and sold stupid amounts of special editions.

It may enhance (Smaug). It makes it clear just how powerful he is, how unstoppable. The dwarves don't make him look weak because there is simply no way they can hurt him. Just harass him.

And completely outwit him. And run around like cartoon mice. And suffer no consequences from having taken on the great and might Smoog. The whole scene was worthy of a Yakety Sax compilation.

He comes across as basically invincible.

He comes across as Tom from Tom and Jerry.

And yes, he seems less intelligent, more of a rampaging elemental force than a sinister mastermind. But it is fairly well established in general lore about dragons (much of which comes from this book) that they are easy to flatter and manipulate despite their intelligence. They are desperate for courtiers. That's why Bilbo almost gets away with it despite the utter transparency of what he's doing (Smaug compliments him on his nice manners, quite sincerely it seems). Losing his cool over the return of an ancient enemy, one who might threaten his horde, seems totally reasonable.

The problem is, what the Bilbo-Smuuug showdown illustrates with playful finesse, the "Nevermind this murder business ya'll I see a shiny thing" scene plays out with all the grace and success of that trapeze artist who fell when I was at the circus when I was I dunno 9 or 10 and then the webbing broke when he landed so he ended up on concrete and an ambulance literally drove into the circus which was wild but shit I wonder if he was okay I hadn't thought about that in years.

It's an exciting sequence, and a suitable climax

Please tell me you use this kind of language in the bedroom.

[stip]

1: I THINK the Laketown stuff probably has to be there....I think we need to be somewhat concerned about the town and the people in it (Bard's family at least) for us to care that smaug is coming to destroy it.

That's a pretty reasonable argument for including the town. However, what's worth debating is whether or not they achieved that end....whether or not they succeeded in making us care. Or, whether or not they should have been able to do so in a more economic or fluid manner than they did.

For sure. I definitely think this could have been done better. I wonder if the extended editions will flesh this out. I don't care that much yet. I guess it was also needed as a backdrop for the Tauriel/Kili story (which is the most superflous in the story, even though I've enjoyed the fight scenes that serve it)

I know some people criticized this, but I really like the showdown between gandalf and Sauron. The way they did the magic, the contest of wills, the idea of sauron as an incorporeal manifestation of evil. I greatly prefer this to the eye sitting on top of a tower in LTOR.

When the confrontation finally happened, it looked like they had 2 seconds of footage of Gandalf making his u-no-pass face, and they just kept replaying it.

well that's basically what's happening. It's a battle of wills and that's his magic duel/taking a shit face. It could have been worse. He could have pulled out his lightsaber and started bouncing around.

Again, regardless of the function of the scene, I don't think this was the most impactful way they could have handled it. And, because the dwarf side of the story was so overburdened with additions, this whole business seemed oddly detached and compartmentalized. It was a half step away from feeling like a commercial break.

I enjoy this sub story so it felt important to me. I wanted more of it though, which I suppose may speak to your point. It's building to a big climax in the third film, so it'll be interesting to see how much of the stuff in this film (which is almost all set up), if any, feels different when we see where it is going.

I still vote that they should have kept it out of the movie (heaven knows Gandalf is pretty much the king of "we are going on a very dangerous mission but not me I've got shit to do so later you pussies") and included the Gandalf footage in the DVD release as a separate mini-story. "Gandalf Actually Does Something, Episode I." It would have trimmed this movie out of the Big and Tall stores, and sold stupid amounts of special editions.

Fair enough. I'm taking as a given that it has to be three films (obviously it doesn't but they made that decision) so the question is how to make the three films better. And if you aiming for three movies this probably has to be there. I agree it feels imbalanced because there is so much more screen time given to the other stories. I wonder how this would have felt if they left this with Gandalf walking in, and maybe opening the third film (or closing out the second) with his confrontation with Sauron

It may enhance (Smaug). It makes it clear just how powerful he is, how unstoppable. The dwarves don't make him look weak because there is simply no way they can hurt him. Just harass him.

And completely outwit him. And run around like cartoon mice. And suffer no consequences from having taken on the great and might Smoog. The whole scene was worthy of a Yakety Sax compilation.

The point is that he can be outwitted. Bilbo outwits him in the book. He kind of outwits him in their earlier exchange. Smaug, for all his intelligence, is easily blinded by his emotions (anger/insecurity/etc). Especially when treasure is involved (which is a running theme). And I don't know that they suffer no consequences. He leaves them alone because he thinks he can punish them more effectively by burning laketown and then coming back to them. It's an 'I'm going to make you watch while I torture the ones you love and it's your fault I'm doing it moment'. They set that up with Bilbo before the lava river stuff. It's not like he's running away from them.

He comes across as basically invincible.

He comes across as Tom from Tom and Jerry.

And tom can take a pounding. Plus they never actually really hurt him until the end. They just kind of inconvenience him. Which seems plausible. He's a huge dragon flying around a space not designed for him. There's lots of shit for him to get tangled up in, spaces he can't easily get into, etc.

And yes, he seems less intelligent, more of a rampaging elemental force than a sinister mastermind. But it is fairly well established in general lore about dragons (much of which comes from this book) that they are easy to flatter and manipulate despite their intelligence. They are desperate for courtiers. That's why Bilbo almost gets away with it despite the utter transparency of what he's doing (Smaug compliments him on his nice manners, quite sincerely it seems). Losing his cool over the return of an ancient enemy, one who might threaten his horde, seems totally reasonable.

The problem is, what the Bilbo-Smuuug showdown illustrates with playful finesse, the "Nevermind this murder business ya'll I see a shiny thing" scene plays out with all the grace and success of that trapeze artist who fell when I was at the circus when I was I dunno 9 or 10 and then the webbing broke when he landed so he ended up on concrete and an ambulance literally drove into the circus which was wild but shit I wonder if he was okay I hadn't thought about that in years.

I can only assume the answer is forthcoming in the third film.

It's an exciting sequence, and a suitable climax

Please tell me you use this kind of language in the bedroom.

well not during, obviously. But afterwards, when I'm trying to justify the rankings.

[stip]

I'm always proud of myself for not fucking up the quoting in an exchange like that

[McParadigm]

the Tauriel/Kili story (which is the most superflous in the story, even though I've enjoyed the fight scenes that serve it)

I think you've got that backwards.

well that's basically what's happening. It's a battle of wills and that's his magic duel/taking a shit face. It could have been worse. He could have pulled out his lightsaber and started bouncing around.

One point for stip. That definitely would have been worse.

Fair enough. I'm taking as a given that it has to be three films (obviously it doesn't but they made that decision) so the question is how to make the three films better. And if you aiming for three movies this probably has to be there. I agree it feels imbalanced because there is so much more screen time given to the other stories. I wonder how this would have felt if they left this with Gandalf walking in, and maybe opening the third film (or closing out the second) with his confrontation with Sauron

If they decided it had to be three movies, that still didn't mean it had to be three 3-hour long ones. I do kind of blame the Lord of the Rings movies for the fact that every big event movie has to be a thousand hours long, now. And the world has to be at stake. And kill as many bystanders as you can. Those movies did it well, but literally every movie now seems to confuse screaming white noise with epic, engaging storytelling. And the Hobbit movies are as guilty as anyone.

The point is, there was room to trim. Simplify your story, don't add so much (or reduce the presence of the additions, at least), focus your tale.

The point is that he can be outwitted.

Yeah, what I'm saying is there's a difference between illustrating that he can be distracted or affected when flattery or wealth are involved, and making him 115% pliable to every single easy trick in the book.

And tom can take a pounding.

Where's that gif at?

It's an exciting sequence, and a suitable climax

Please tell me you use this kind of language in the bedroom.

well not during, obviously. But afterwards, when I'm trying to justify the rankings.

"It was pretty good...but I just don't see it as final four material. Oh, for the love of Christ. Stop crying."

[stip]

Fair enough. I'm taking as a given that it has to be three films (obviously it doesn't but they made that decision) so the question is how to make the three films better. And if you aiming for three movies this probably has to be there. I agree it feels imbalanced because there is so much more screen time given to the other stories. I wonder how this would have felt if they left this with Gandalf walking in, and maybe opening the third film (or closing out the second) with his confrontation with Sauron

If they decided it had to be three movies, that still didn't mean it had to be three 3-hour long ones. I do kind of blame the Lord of the Rings movies for the fact that every big event movie has to be a thousand hours long, now. And the world has to be at stake. And kill as many bystanders as you can. Those movies did it well, but literally every movie now seems to confuse screaming white noise with epic, engaging storytelling. And the Hobbit movies are as guilty as anyone.

The point is, there was room to trim. Simplify your story, don't add so much (or reduce the presence of the additions, at least), focus your tale.

You may very well be right. I want to wait and see how the story ends before I really pass judgement on this. Much of this is set up, and will need to be evaluated based on the payoff.

The point is that he can be outwitted.

Yeah, what I'm saying is there's a difference between illustrating that he can be distracted or affected when flattery or wealth are involved, and making him 115% pliable to every single easy trick in the book.

true, but there's more than just that. Tolkien (and esp. Jackson and his writers--I don't know if this is more prominent with them than Tolkien but it is definitely there) really like to ram home the 'power/greed corrupts and destroys' angle in the story. It takes what is best from you and ruins or inverts it. So Smaug is reduced to essentially a great big, not especially intelligent, lizard. Thorin, ostensibly noble and motivated by a desire to save his people ends up sacrificing those closest to him (his company, bilbo) to pursue his goal. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit but these guys have really invested themselves in the lore and I think this is a deliberate choice beyond 'we need a Erabor set piece chase scene.'

[Jorge]

this thread is hell

[dimejinky99]

Looking more and more likely the final is getting a name change.


Excellent posts lads, thanks for those.

[dimejinky99]

Read something funny today. But true.
The dragon in Shrek forever is actually more threatening than Smaug.
Pound for pound it might well be.

[McParadigm]

My wife is watching Smoog, this morning.

I always forget how much cheaper Jackson made these movies look compared to the originals.

Something about all those vaseline-lensed instagrammy soundstage shots, mixed with the unwelcome overabundance of really, really fake cgi ("BEES! WE NEED MORE BEES AT THE BEAR'S HOUSE! QUICK ANOTHER CLOSE-UP OF A GODDAMN BEE!!!"), just introduces a weirdly amateurish feel to this very expensive film.

Reminds me a LOT of how the Indiana Jones movie looked and felt, in that respect.

For comparison's sake, a few stills from the actual movies:

Primary evil henchman (i.e. "The Muscle") in the Rings movies:

Spoiler: show

Primary evil henchman in the Hobbit:

Spoiler: show

Russian "muscle" character in Crystal Skull:

Spoiler: show

It just doesn't look right, I guess.

[EuellG]

wow looks not bad

[BurtReynolds]

I still havent seen this.

[malice]

yay looks fairly mediocre

[Mecca]

My wife is watching Smoog, this morning.

I always forget how much cheaper Jackson made these movies look compared to the originals.

Something about all those vaseline-lensed instagrammy soundstage shots, mixed with the unwelcome overabundance of really, really fake cgi ("BEES! WE NEED MORE BEES AT THE BEAR'S HOUSE! QUICK ANOTHER CLOSE-UP OF A GODDAMN BEE!!!"), just introduces a weirdly amateurish feel to this very expensive film.

Reminds me a LOT of how the Indiana Jones movie looked and felt, in that respect.

For comparison's sake, a few stills from the actual movies:

Primary evil henchman (i.e. "The Muscle") in the Rings movies:

Spoiler: show

Primary evil henchman in the Hobbit:

Spoiler: show

Russian "muscle" character in Crystal Skull:

Spoiler: show

It just doesn't look right, I guess.

that 3rd spoiler is pretty much how i'd frame McP's plaque in the RM Hall of Fame

[McParadigm]

I'm for it.

[dimejinky99]

The Orc rendering in this is crap. The main guy looks ok by anytime they're moving its bad 90s video game time. Maybe is a design look he's going for what with those and the terrible gold dwarf CGI?

[CopperTom]

The Orc rendering in this is crap. The main guy looks ok by anytime they're moving its bad 90s video game time. Maybe is a design look he's going for what with those and the terrible gold dwarf CGI?

I wondered that too. LotR effects have aged well. I wonder if the 3d played a role in the effect process (and results) for the Hs.

[BurtReynolds]

The effects in LOTR still hold up, guys.

Spoiler: show

[Jorge]

is that by KurtLeon