Red Mosquito

broken iris wrote:But what you describe and what harmless was describing are different in my interpretation. I do not believe it is the intent of Feminism to oppress or exclude males, but it seems like that is part of harmless' view of it should be applied.

What complete and utter rubbish. You're viewing my words through the spectacles of your butthurt.

I'm leaving this to Malice.

You also seem to be forgetting that I myself am male, and do not feel excluded. This is all about the fact that you do, which I can't help you with (since you'd rather exclude my opinion anyway -- ironic).

harmless wrote:You also seem to be forgetting that I myself am male, and do not feel excluded. This is all about the fact that you do, which I can't help you with (since you'd rather exclude my opinion anyway -- ironic).

I don't feel left out of anything, and I have already apologized in this thread if I was misinterpreting your comments. I am trying to understand someone else's point of view that is somewhat foreign to me, which is what you are suggesting part of the proper role of a man in Feminism is. I am not here to bash Feminism, mock those who follow it's various schools of thought, or troll this thread and I have no desire to exclude your opinion. I have replied to the posts you made that were directed at me and have repeatedly solicited further details and explanations from you and not gotten much but pronouncements of my ignorance, which is the actual ironic part. Our world views cannot be so dissimilar that we can't build a common understanding here, but please understand that listening to your opinion, recognizing it as a valid perspective, and agreeing with it are not all the same thing.

The goal of Feminism is for there not to be a need for Feminism.

I'm going to try to catch up with this thread and contribute.

Thejambi wrote:The goal of Feminism is for there not to be a need for Feminism.

I'm going to try to catch up with this thread and contribute.

I'd say that's the goal for all types of socially directed organizations that form

harmless wrote:

broken iris wrote:But what you describe and what harmless was describing are different in my interpretation. I do not believe it is the intent of Feminism to oppress or exclude males, but it seems like that is part of harmless' view of it should be applied.

What complete and utter rubbish. You're viewing my words through the spectacles of your butthurt.

I'm leaving this to Malice.

I have some real anxiety over trying to build a defense for an entire gender. I'm sincere in my beliefs about how I see the world relating to women, I'm sincere in wanting to try to understand where the deficits are in my beliefs, and in wanting to understand why the things I believe come across as controversial to these guys.

I don't really agree with some of the comments they've written, but there's an intense amount of intellectual energy that has to be put into addressing those disagreements involved. and I admit, I feel intimidated somewhat in that what I have to say isn't well laid out and meanders around groping for a point to make.

I wish more women posted here because strength in numbers isn't always about making yourself feel better it's sometimes about having people in similar circumstances providing checks and balances to what you have to say.

blah, whatever. I think better at night I may come back and reply to them later...

Wall of text

malice wrote:

harmless wrote:

broken iris wrote:But what you describe and what harmless was describing are different in my interpretation. I do not believe it is the intent of Feminism to oppress or exclude males, but it seems like that is part of harmless' view of it should be applied.

What complete and utter rubbish. You're viewing my words through the spectacles of your butthurt.

I'm leaving this to Malice.

I have some real anxiety over trying to build a defense for an entire gender. I'm sincere in my beliefs about how I see the world relating to women, I'm sincere in wanting to try to understand where the deficits are in my beliefs, and in wanting to understand why the things I believe come across as controversial to these guys.

I don't really agree with some of the comments they've written, but there's an intense amount of intellectual energy that has to be put into addressing those disagreements involved. and I admit, I feel intimidated somewhat in that what I have to say isn't well laid out and meanders around groping for a point to make.

I wish more women posted here because strength in numbers isn't always about making yourself feel better it's sometimes about having people in similar circumstances providing checks and balances to what you have to say.

blah, whatever. I think better at night I may come back and reply to them later...

I didn't mean to pass any responsibility onto you; no one should feel like a spokesperson. You're right, and also, RM is hardly the venue really.

malice wrote:

Thejambi wrote:The goal of Feminism is for there not to be a need for Feminism.

I'm going to try to catch up with this thread and contribute.

I'd say that's the goal for all types of socially directed organizations that form

broken iris wrote:

harmless wrote:You also seem to be forgetting that I myself am male, and do not feel excluded. This is all about the fact that you do, which I can't help you with (since you'd rather exclude my opinion anyway -- ironic).

I don't feel left out of anything, and I have already apologized in this thread if I was misinterpreting your comments. I am trying to understand someone else's point of view that is somewhat foreign to me, which is what you are suggesting part of the proper role of a man in Feminism is. I am not here to bash Feminism, mock those who follow it's various schools of thought, or troll this thread and I have no desire to exclude your opinion. I have replied to the posts you made that were directed at me and have repeatedly solicited further details and explanations from you and not gotten much but pronouncements of my ignorance, which is the actual ironic part. Our world views cannot be so dissimilar that we can't build a common understanding here, but please understand that listening to your opinion, recognizing it as a valid perspective, and agreeing with it are not all the same thing.

Sorry. I got angry.

But if your interpretation of "Read, listen, consider feminist points of view and learn" was "Men, get out of the conversation, you're not welcome to be involved" then I don't know what else to say. I type lots of words but I can't control how others will interpret them, and I don't have the energy to try. My main point is that wanting to learn was not choosing to be "in the audience" in the sense of ducking out of my responsibility to be an active part. My understanding is that there is no point in being an active part if I don't sit and listen. I can't simply call myself an ally because I care, because I know as a disabled person that people can call themselves an ally to my cause(s) but still be ultimately detrimental to the cause in what they say and do. That's just the nature of the beast; intentions aren't enough. That was my only point. Men can be part of feminism, but first they have to recognise that it's not primarily their fight; their role, if they want it, is to ask what their role should be, and then do that.

Generally speaking, men, by nature of being men, are not born with the knowledge of how to make this culture a less patriarchal / paternalistic one. This is all I'm saying.

harmless wrote:

malice wrote:

harmless wrote:

broken iris wrote:But what you describe and what harmless was describing are different in my interpretation. I do not believe it is the intent of Feminism to oppress or exclude males, but it seems like that is part of harmless' view of it should be applied.

What complete and utter rubbish. You're viewing my words through the spectacles of your butthurt.

I'm leaving this to Malice.

I have some real anxiety over trying to build a defense for an entire gender. I'm sincere in my beliefs about how I see the world relating to women, I'm sincere in wanting to try to understand where the deficits are in my beliefs, and in wanting to understand why the things I believe come across as controversial to these guys.

I don't really agree with some of the comments they've written, but there's an intense amount of intellectual energy that has to be put into addressing those disagreements involved. and I admit, I feel intimidated somewhat in that what I have to say isn't well laid out and meanders around groping for a point to make.

I wish more women posted here because strength in numbers isn't always about making yourself feel better it's sometimes about having people in similar circumstances providing checks and balances to what you have to say.

blah, whatever. I think better at night I may come back and reply to them later...

I didn't mean to pass any responsibility onto you; no one should feel like a spokesperson. You're right, and also, RM is hardly the venue really.

I get that, babe. I was explaining more to let you and anyone else interested that I do want to participate, but it takes time to construct it properly in my head. jsut how I think is all. other women posting helps in that they can confirm or deny what I experience as a women and helps me differentiate between what is a woman's experience of the world as opposed to what is Mary's experience of the world.
I'm hardly typical in my approach to life so what I say and think is hardly ever completely representative of what 'most women' say and think.

malice wrote:

Thejambi wrote:The goal of Feminism is for there not to be a need for Feminism.

I'm going to try to catch up with this thread and contribute.

I'd say that's the goal for all types of socially directed organizations that form

Absolutely.

I like the coin analogy quite a bit. I do believe woman have taken a coin or two back, especially looking back at 60's/70's/80's. Having said that I don't think all of those coins have been given without a still existing reluctance. The overall problem is neither gender is fully committed to the issue or understands what the real issue is. For every strong willed and capable woman I know, I know one that is perfectly fine with a submissive life in a submissive role because she feels that what she is supposed to be/do. For every level headed and non-biased male I know I know a macho "bro" that believes his woman should be in the kitchen making sandwiches and pumping out kids. What I've learned is it's all about choice and what the response is to that choice. If a woman chooses to stay at home and play the more 1960's role and is happy with it that should be just as acceptable as a woman running a fortune 500 company. Either way it should be her choice to live that lifestyle and not have it be what is expected of her based on gender. The same should be said about men.

Thejambi wrote:

malice wrote:

Thejambi wrote:The goal of Feminism is for there not to be a need for Feminism.

I'm going to try to catch up with this thread and contribute.

I'd say that's the goal for all types of socially directed organizations that form

Absolutely.

I like the coin analogy quite a bit. I do believe woman have taken a coin or two back, especially looking back at 60's/70's/80's. Having said that I don't think all of those coins have been given without a still existing reluctance. The overall problem is neither gender is fully committed to the issue or understands what the real issue is. For every strong willed and capable woman I know, I know one that is perfectly fine with a submissive life in a submissive role because she feels that what she is supposed to be/do. For every level headed and non-biased male I know I know a macho "bro" that believes his woman should be in the kitchen making sandwiches and pumping out kids. What I've learned is it's all about choice and what the response is to that choice. If a woman chooses to stay at home and play the more 1960's role and is happy with it that should be just as acceptable as a woman running a fortune 500 company. Either way it should be her choice to live that lifestyle and not have it be what is expected of her based on gender. The same should be said about men.

I was just trying (and failing) to say that it's my belief that "choice" in our society is often an illusion. So not all choices are good / helpful just because they are freely chosen, but not only that, somewhere there is a system which forces our "choices" into particular boxes. So the housewife may criticise what they call "choice feminism" because, as someone who is in poverty (for example), her lack of social manoeuvrability means that choice is not a luxury she has. (Ever noticed that a lot of people advocating "choice feminism" and "sexual freedom" are rich celebrities?) Someone will always be there to say that thinking systemically is pointless complication of things, but it's not that complicated really. Yes, the ideal world would be one in which everyone would be free to choose. But to achieve that, the scales need to be tipped the other way in terms of power. What I'm saying takes feminism away from being just about individual responsibility, and should also (in theory) stop us men thinking we're all guilty and women hate us for everything. Because honestly, if there is a systemic problem, there is no need for every individual in that system to feel guilty about it, just to be aware, and make it a priority to change the way they interact with the world as an individual. The same thing is true about race, or disability, or sexuality, or anything. I don't feel guilty about being a white male, but neither do I feel personally guilty when a black person reminds me that imperialism is white people's fault (and continues to this day).

malice wrote:

harmless wrote:

malice wrote:

harmless wrote:

broken iris wrote:But what you describe and what harmless was describing are different in my interpretation. I do not believe it is the intent of Feminism to oppress or exclude males, but it seems like that is part of harmless' view of it should be applied.

What complete and utter rubbish. You're viewing my words through the spectacles of your butthurt.

I'm leaving this to Malice.

I have some real anxiety over trying to build a defense for an entire gender. I'm sincere in my beliefs about how I see the world relating to women, I'm sincere in wanting to try to understand where the deficits are in my beliefs, and in wanting to understand why the things I believe come across as controversial to these guys.

I don't really agree with some of the comments they've written, but there's an intense amount of intellectual energy that has to be put into addressing those disagreements involved. and I admit, I feel intimidated somewhat in that what I have to say isn't well laid out and meanders around groping for a point to make.

I wish more women posted here because strength in numbers isn't always about making yourself feel better it's sometimes about having people in similar circumstances providing checks and balances to what you have to say.

blah, whatever. I think better at night I may come back and reply to them later...

I didn't mean to pass any responsibility onto you; no one should feel like a spokesperson. You're right, and also, RM is hardly the venue really.

I get that, babe. I was explaining more to let you and anyone else interested that I do want to participate, but it takes time to construct it properly in my head. jsut how I think is all. other women posting helps in that they can confirm or deny what I experience as a women and helps me differentiate between what is a woman's experience of the world as opposed to what is Mary's experience of the world.
I'm hardly typical in my approach to life so what I say and think is hardly ever completely representative of what 'most women' say and think.

I'm pretty sure most women aren't even equal to each either, so you can never represent "women" as a group. We're all different ages, different upbringings, and with different experiences.

How we each personally feel about what role a man should play or does play in our lives is where our feminism begins to take shape.

I feel like my gif was criminally underappreciated.now I feel oppressed.

BurtReynolds wrote:I feel like my gif was criminally underappreciated.now I feel oppressed.

It was like being told to stand up straight and still while a little girl off to the side was getting away with dancing to the beat of her own drum?

BurtReynolds wrote:I feel like my gif was criminally underappreciated.now I feel oppressed.

i didn't get it :/

mookie wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:I feel like my gif was criminally underappreciated.now I feel oppressed.

It was like being told to stand up straight and still while a little girl off to the side was getting away with dancing to the beat of her own drum?

Exactly. The forced subjugation of man (who is clearly out of control and hopelessly sexually deviant) by a dominating matriarch. Modern life in just a few frames.