Red Mosquito

given2trade wrote:

broken iris wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:I'm also not sure I buy Jesse putting the pieces together the way he did.

I get why that had to happen, but I agree it seems like a bit of a stretch.

My GF and I couldn't really figure it out.

Yeah? That's where my mind went immediately. Maybe because I just rewatched season 4.

theplatypus wrote:

given2trade wrote:

broken iris wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:I'm also not sure I buy Jesse putting the pieces together the way he did.

I get why that had to happen, but I agree it seems like a bit of a stretch.

My GF and I couldn't really figure it out.

Yeah? That's where my mind went immediately. Maybe because I just rewatched season 4.

Or maybe cause you're smarter than us. Way to rub it in.

Strat wrote:

broken iris wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:I'm also not sure I buy Jesse putting the pieces together the way he did.

I get why that had to happen, but I agree it seems like a bit of a stretch.

At first i thought they were hinting that Walt and slipped a ricin cig into Jesses pack that he had smoked....

I thought so too for a second. Which would have been much more compelling. Instead they (once again) forced a plot a point.

Stickman wrote:

broken iris wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:I'm also not sure I buy Jesse putting the pieces together the way he did.

I get why that had to happen, but I agree it seems like a bit of a stretch.

and he still thinks it was the ricin that put the kid in the hospital!

Wait, what? I thought he knew it was the Lilly of the Valley or whatever.

turned2black wrote:I don't think it was that much of a stretch. Jessie was surely thinking about all the ways Walt had manipulated him in the past, then realizing that Saul's bodyguard had lifted his weed, he put it together. Add to it that this was probably the only time in the last few months he wasn't stoned out of his mind and I think it's feasible.

Sure, but again, Jesse was told it wasn't the ricin, but the flower that poisoned Brock. Right? Am I remembering that incorrectly?

Monkey_Driven wrote:Alan Sepinwall summed it up well in his recap this morning.

Heavy Spoilers below...

Spoiler: show

1)In "End Times," to get Jesse back on his side in the war against Gus, Walt arranges for Huell to steal the cigarette pack with the ricin cigarette out of Jesse's pocket and replace it with a different pack. Saul calls Jesse to his office on shaky reasons, and Huell pats him down in a way that gets Jesse's attention. Walt doesn't use the ricin to poison Brock, but rather a lily of the valley plant that will have a similar but less dangerous effect on the boy.

2)When Jesse hears that Brock has been poisoned, he realizes that the ricin cigarette is missing, then (correctly) puts two and two together that Huell stole it, on Walt's orders. He storms into Walt's house and threatens to kill him for poisoning Brock; Walt convinces Jesse that it was Gus, not him, who wanted to hurt the boy — specifically so Jesse would come to this conclusion and murder Walt for him — and that Tyrus must have lifted the cigarettes from Jesse's locker at the Super Lab. Jesse accepts that Mr. White would never hurt a child, whereas Gus has a history of hurting children, and lets go of the theory about Huell.

3)Doctors later figure out that Brock was poisoned by a lily of the valley, not ricin, making Jesse doubt Walt's theory about Gus manipulating Jesse into shooting Walt, and leaving him to wonder what really happened to the ricin cigarette. Walt stages a phony search of Jesse's house and plants a fake cigarette (containing salt, not ricin) inside Jesse's Roomba. None of this sits well with Jesse, but he once again believes Mr. White.

4)Over the course of season 5, starting around the murder of Drew Sharp, Jesse has begun to realize that he shouldn't believe anything Walt says. Walt claims to be broken up over Drew's death, then whistles while he works. Walt claims that Mike left town alive, when Jesse knows that Walt would've never taken out Mike's guys unless Mike was dead. Walt gives Jesse a whole song and dance about how leaving town will be good for Jesse, when Jesse knows that it will be even better for Walt.

5)Having been primed to disbelieve any word out of Walt's mouth, Jesse goes to Saul's office, lights up a joint and gets scolded by Saul, who knows his relocation expert won't pick up anyone who's high. Saul orders Huell to again pick Jesse's pocket to get rid of the marijuana.

6)At the pick-up spot, a nervous Jesse reaches for his pot, and can't find it. He frantically checks all his pockets, but all he finds is a cigarette pack. Staring at the cigarette pack, and realizing Huell dipped into his pocket without him noticing, Jesse realizes that his first suspicions about the ricin cigarette were correct, and that Mr. White was manipulating him into turning against Gus, endangering Brock's life in the process.

That the ricin wasn't actually used on Brock is beside the point. Jesse knew from the beginning that Huell had picked his pocket, and that he must have done it on Mr. White's orders. He has been thinking about this often in the months since it happened — far more often and more intensely than those of us watching the show have, and in a more compressed time period. When he realizes Huell picked his pocket, and stares at another crumpled cigarette pack, everything clicks into place about the events of "End Times" — including how convenient it was that this terrible thing happened to Brock, which turned Jesse back into Walt's ally, at the exact moment Walt needed an ally against Gus — and he goes on the warpath against Saul, Huell and that asshole Mr. White.
Read more at http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watchi ... lajhUHl.99

That's a concise way to put it. But I'm still not buying it. I mean, it's fine. I'll get over it. But I think it all could have been handled better. It's weak writing. It's more skipping/forcing to put the characters in the place they need to be. It's not a deal breaker, but it feels sloppy and forced.

I still really enjoyed the episode beyond this and the seeming zero consequences connected to this guy who replaces people.

I like it, and I think it works well with how they've established Jesse this season as a lot more astute and perceptive than everybody gives him credit for.

durdencommatyler wrote:

Monkey_Driven wrote:Alan Sepinwall summed it up well in his recap this morning.

Heavy Spoilers below...

Spoiler: show

1)In "End Times," to get Jesse back on his side in the war against Gus, Walt arranges for Huell to steal the cigarette pack with the ricin cigarette out of Jesse's pocket and replace it with a different pack. Saul calls Jesse to his office on shaky reasons, and Huell pats him down in a way that gets Jesse's attention. Walt doesn't use the ricin to poison Brock, but rather a lily of the valley plant that will have a similar but less dangerous effect on the boy.

2)When Jesse hears that Brock has been poisoned, he realizes that the ricin cigarette is missing, then (correctly) puts two and two together that Huell stole it, on Walt's orders. He storms into Walt's house and threatens to kill him for poisoning Brock; Walt convinces Jesse that it was Gus, not him, who wanted to hurt the boy — specifically so Jesse would come to this conclusion and murder Walt for him — and that Tyrus must have lifted the cigarettes from Jesse's locker at the Super Lab. Jesse accepts that Mr. White would never hurt a child, whereas Gus has a history of hurting children, and lets go of the theory about Huell.

3)Doctors later figure out that Brock was poisoned by a lily of the valley, not ricin, making Jesse doubt Walt's theory about Gus manipulating Jesse into shooting Walt, and leaving him to wonder what really happened to the ricin cigarette. Walt stages a phony search of Jesse's house and plants a fake cigarette (containing salt, not ricin) inside Jesse's Roomba. None of this sits well with Jesse, but he once again believes Mr. White.

4)Over the course of season 5, starting around the murder of Drew Sharp, Jesse has begun to realize that he shouldn't believe anything Walt says. Walt claims to be broken up over Drew's death, then whistles while he works. Walt claims that Mike left town alive, when Jesse knows that Walt would've never taken out Mike's guys unless Mike was dead. Walt gives Jesse a whole song and dance about how leaving town will be good for Jesse, when Jesse knows that it will be even better for Walt.

5)Having been primed to disbelieve any word out of Walt's mouth, Jesse goes to Saul's office, lights up a joint and gets scolded by Saul, who knows his relocation expert won't pick up anyone who's high. Saul orders Huell to again pick Jesse's pocket to get rid of the marijuana.

6)At the pick-up spot, a nervous Jesse reaches for his pot, and can't find it. He frantically checks all his pockets, but all he finds is a cigarette pack. Staring at the cigarette pack, and realizing Huell dipped into his pocket without him noticing, Jesse realizes that his first suspicions about the ricin cigarette were correct, and that Mr. White was manipulating him into turning against Gus, endangering Brock's life in the process.

That the ricin wasn't actually used on Brock is beside the point. Jesse knew from the beginning that Huell had picked his pocket, and that he must have done it on Mr. White's orders. He has been thinking about this often in the months since it happened — far more often and more intensely than those of us watching the show have, and in a more compressed time period. When he realizes Huell picked his pocket, and stares at another crumpled cigarette pack, everything clicks into place about the events of "End Times" — including how convenient it was that this terrible thing happened to Brock, which turned Jesse back into Walt's ally, at the exact moment Walt needed an ally against Gus — and he goes on the warpath against Saul, Huell and that asshole Mr. White.
Read more at http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watchi ... lajhUHl.99

It's weak writing.

And while the show is one of my favorites ever, I think the writers are guilty of lazy writing every once and awhile. But I forgive them cause the show has a plethora of memorable moments.

And I must say, the way they're holding back on Todd & the Brotherhood is just masterful to me. Just this ominous, unnerving tone, but restrained from revealing too much. It leaves time for Walt, Hank, Skyler, & Jesse to look up each others asses and get distracted. By placing Todd at the beginning of the episode makes you forget about the shit storm that is coming everyones way.

I already think Todd is the best villian off the show. He's creepy as hell. Maybe it's the fine work of actor Jesse Plemons.

durdencommatyler wrote: I still really enjoyed the episode beyond this and the seeming zero consequences connected to this guy who replaces people.

That puzzled me as well, but I suspect there will be lots of red herrings here at the end. Though it seems like business where you wouldn't want to jerk someone around twice in a relatively short time frame if you were Saul.

Harry Lime wrote:And while the show is one of my favorites ever, I think the writers are guilty of lazy writing every once and awhile. But I forgive them cause the show has a plethora of memorable moments.

And I must say, the way they're holding back on Todd & the Brotherhood is just masterful to me. Just this ominous, unnerving tone, but restrained from revealing too much. It leaves time for Walt, Hank, Skyler, & Jesse to look up each others asses and get distracted. By placing Todd at the beginning of the episode makes you forget about the shit storm that is coming everyones way.

I already think Todd is the best villian off the show. He's creepy as hell. Maybe it's the fine work of actor Jesse Plemons.

For sure. But the lazy writing is what keeps it from being better than Mad Men or even Game of Thrones, for me. But, yeah, the show is still great. And it's easy to forgive because of all the the things they do right.

Todd is fantastic. I thought his hubris/bragging at the beginning of the episode was really great. Great parallel/foreshadowing.

broken iris wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote: I still really enjoyed the episode beyond this and the seeming zero consequences connected to this guy who replaces people.

That puzzled me as well, but I suspect there will be lots of red herrings here at the end. Though it seems like business where you wouldn't want to jerk someone around twice in a relatively short time frame if you were Saul.

I hope there's more to that. Some consequence or resolve. But I'm betting there won't be. Ultimately, I suppose it's not that important/big of a deal. But they've made a big deal out of that guy twice now. So it'll annoy me if there's no more mention/consequence.

Not to make excuses for the "lazy writing" but fitting two seasons of content into 16 episodes may have something to with it.

Monkey_Driven wrote:Not to make excuses for the "lazy writing" but fitting two seasons of content into 16 episodes may have something to with it.

But weren't they only planning on one more season? Didn't AMC give them extra hours? Sounds like bad planning to me.

I don't get the "lazy writing" thing. Showing how Brock's death has affected Jessie's state-of-mind over the last year, then using that death as the thing to spark Jessie back to life is kinda brilliant.

"Jesse knew from the beginning that Huell had picked his pocket, and that he must have done it on Mr. White's orders."

I'd have to go back and watch Season 4. Is that what Jesse thought happened? Did he say it?

"He (Jesse) has been thinking about this often in the months since it happened — far more often and more intensely than those of us watching the show have, and in a more compressed time period."

In that case you have to show that's what he's thinking about. For all we know he's reeling over the death of Drew & possibly Mike. He hasn't thought about Brock and what's her name for some time. 1.) He broke it off with her. 2.)Saul gave him the option to say goodbye to some people and he chose not to. He must not be thinking about them too much.

I don't know, the pieces of the puzzle came together rather quickly for him in that 20 seconds. I think Jesse could have been sent over the edge with Mike's death & Walt's lie alone, and the cigarette lift could have been left a mystery. Regardless, it was all pointing towards the same end anyway, so be it.

durdencommatyler wrote:

Monkey_Driven wrote:Alan Sepinwall summed it up well in his recap this morning.

Heavy Spoilers below...

Spoiler: show

1)In "End Times," to get Jesse back on his side in the war against Gus, Walt arranges for Huell to steal the cigarette pack with the ricin cigarette out of Jesse's pocket and replace it with a different pack. Saul calls Jesse to his office on shaky reasons, and Huell pats him down in a way that gets Jesse's attention. Walt doesn't use the ricin to poison Brock, but rather a lily of the valley plant that will have a similar but less dangerous effect on the boy.

2)When Jesse hears that Brock has been poisoned, he realizes that the ricin cigarette is missing, then (correctly) puts two and two together that Huell stole it, on Walt's orders. He storms into Walt's house and threatens to kill him for poisoning Brock; Walt convinces Jesse that it was Gus, not him, who wanted to hurt the boy — specifically so Jesse would come to this conclusion and murder Walt for him — and that Tyrus must have lifted the cigarettes from Jesse's locker at the Super Lab. Jesse accepts that Mr. White would never hurt a child, whereas Gus has a history of hurting children, and lets go of the theory about Huell.

3)Doctors later figure out that Brock was poisoned by a lily of the valley, not ricin, making Jesse doubt Walt's theory about Gus manipulating Jesse into shooting Walt, and leaving him to wonder what really happened to the ricin cigarette. Walt stages a phony search of Jesse's house and plants a fake cigarette (containing salt, not ricin) inside Jesse's Roomba. None of this sits well with Jesse, but he once again believes Mr. White.

4)Over the course of season 5, starting around the murder of Drew Sharp, Jesse has begun to realize that he shouldn't believe anything Walt says. Walt claims to be broken up over Drew's death, then whistles while he works. Walt claims that Mike left town alive, when Jesse knows that Walt would've never taken out Mike's guys unless Mike was dead. Walt gives Jesse a whole song and dance about how leaving town will be good for Jesse, when Jesse knows that it will be even better for Walt.

5)Having been primed to disbelieve any word out of Walt's mouth, Jesse goes to Saul's office, lights up a joint and gets scolded by Saul, who knows his relocation expert won't pick up anyone who's high. Saul orders Huell to again pick Jesse's pocket to get rid of the marijuana.

6)At the pick-up spot, a nervous Jesse reaches for his pot, and can't find it. He frantically checks all his pockets, but all he finds is a cigarette pack. Staring at the cigarette pack, and realizing Huell dipped into his pocket without him noticing, Jesse realizes that his first suspicions about the ricin cigarette were correct, and that Mr. White was manipulating him into turning against Gus, endangering Brock's life in the process.

That the ricin wasn't actually used on Brock is beside the point. Jesse knew from the beginning that Huell had picked his pocket, and that he must have done it on Mr. White's orders. He has been thinking about this often in the months since it happened — far more often and more intensely than those of us watching the show have, and in a more compressed time period. When he realizes Huell picked his pocket, and stares at another crumpled cigarette pack, everything clicks into place about the events of "End Times" — including how convenient it was that this terrible thing happened to Brock, which turned Jesse back into Walt's ally, at the exact moment Walt needed an ally against Gus — and he goes on the warpath against Saul, Huell and that asshole Mr. White.
Read more at http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watchi ... lajhUHl.99

That's a concise way to put it. But I'm still not buying it. I mean, it's fine. I'll get over it. But I think it all could have been handled better. It's weak writing. It's more skipping/forcing to put the characters in the place they need to be. It's not a deal breaker, but it feels sloppy and forced.

I still really enjoyed the episode beyond this and the seeming zero consequences connected to this guy who replaces people.

I think part of the problem here is that more than an entire year has passed for the viewer between the cigarette-in-the-Roomba scene and last night's episode. if this season had been aired without a break you might be more willing to accept that Jesse might arrive here organically. I admit, when I saw the cigarette scene, I was thinking to myself, "How the hell is he putting this together right now?" But I had forgotten that Huell had frisked Jesse before; and Jesse's "catatonia" toward Walt by nature buries some of his suspicions, aside from the occasional suspicious look and/or body language. In other words, it might be easy to misinterpret what Jesse's thinking.

Which is not to say this was handled flawlessly-- but might this not add up a little more tidily if viewed without a gap?

durdencommatyler wrote:

Monkey_Driven wrote:Not to make excuses for the "lazy writing" but fitting two seasons of content into 16 episodes may have something to with it.

But weren't they only planning on one more season? Didn't AMC give them extra hours? Sounds like bad planning to me.

AMC initially only wanted to give them one 6-10 episode season to finish the story after season 4. The writers/producers wanted to do 2 seasons or so and even went as far as shopping the series to other networks. The current two 8 week mini-seasons was the compromise.

turned2black wrote:I don't get the "lazy writing" thing. Showing how Brock's death has affected Jessie's state-of-mind over the last year, then using that death as the thing to spark Jessie back to life is kinda brilliant.

I don't either. I think they did adequate job portraying Jesse's state of mind and why he was beginning to doubt everything Walt has ever done for him. The whistling scene after the motorcycle kid's death was pretty pivotal for this recent Brock realization.

durdencommatyler wrote:

turned2black wrote:I don't think it was that much of a stretch. Jessie was surely thinking about all the ways Walt had manipulated him in the past, then realizing that Saul's bodyguard had lifted his weed, he put it together. Add to it that this was probably the only time in the last few months he wasn't stoned out of his mind and I think it's feasible.

Sure, but again, Jesse was told it wasn't the ricin, but the flower that poisoned Brock. Right? Am I remembering that incorrectly?

You're remembering it right-- and that is bound to be Walt's only defense (if he's even going to bother mounting one).

turned2black wrote:I don't get the "lazy writing" thing. Showing how Brock's death has affected Jessie's state-of-mind over the last year, then using that death as the thing to spark Jessie back to life is kinda brilliant.

Brock's not dead, yo.

durdencommatyler wrote:

Stickman wrote:

broken iris wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:I'm also not sure I buy Jesse putting the pieces together the way he did.

I get why that had to happen, but I agree it seems like a bit of a stretch.

and he still thinks it was the ricin that put the kid in the hospital!

Wait, what? I thought he knew it was the Lilly of the Valley or whatever.

That's what the doc told him. Now he's back to thinking Walt did it with the ricin.