Red Mosquito

BurtReynolds wrote:

mookie wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:I feel like my gif was criminally underappreciated.now I feel oppressed.

It was like being told to stand up straight and still while a little girl off to the side was getting away with dancing to the beat of her own drum?

Exactly. The forced subjugation of man (who is clearly out of control and hopelessly sexually deviant) by a dominating matriarch. Modern life in just a few frames.

harmless wrote:

Thejambi wrote:

malice wrote:

Thejambi wrote:The goal of Feminism is for there not to be a need for Feminism.

I'm going to try to catch up with this thread and contribute.

I'd say that's the goal for all types of socially directed organizations that form

Absolutely.

I like the coin analogy quite a bit. I do believe woman have taken a coin or two back, especially looking back at 60's/70's/80's. Having said that I don't think all of those coins have been given without a still existing reluctance. The overall problem is neither gender is fully committed to the issue or understands what the real issue is. For every strong willed and capable woman I know, I know one that is perfectly fine with a submissive life in a submissive role because she feels that what she is supposed to be/do. For every level headed and non-biased male I know I know a macho "bro" that believes his woman should be in the kitchen making sandwiches and pumping out kids. What I've learned is it's all about choice and what the response is to that choice. If a woman chooses to stay at home and play the more 1960's role and is happy with it that should be just as acceptable as a woman running a fortune 500 company. Either way it should be her choice to live that lifestyle and not have it be what is expected of her based on gender. The same should be said about men.

I was just trying (and failing) to say that it's my belief that "choice" in our society is often an illusion. So not all choices are good / helpful just because they are freely chosen, but not only that, somewhere there is a system which forces our "choices" into particular boxes. So the housewife may criticise what they call "choice feminism" because, as someone who is in poverty (for example), her lack of social manoeuvrability means that choice is not a luxury she has. (Ever noticed that a lot of people advocating "choice feminism" and "sexual freedom" are rich celebrities?) Someone will always be there to say that thinking systemically is pointless complication of things, but it's not that complicated really. Yes, the ideal world would be one in which everyone would be free to choose. But to achieve that, the scales need to be tipped the other way in terms of power. What I'm saying takes feminism away from being just about individual responsibility, and should also (in theory) stop us men thinking we're all guilty and women hate us for everything. Because honestly, if there is a systemic problem, there is no need for every individual in that system to feel guilty about it, just to be aware, and make it a priority to change the way they interact with the world as an individual. The same thing is true about race, or disability, or sexuality, or anything. I don't feel guilty about being a white male, but neither do I feel personally guilty when a black person reminds me that imperialism is white people's fault (and continues to this day).

Thejambi wrote:

harmless wrote:

Thejambi wrote:

malice wrote:

Thejambi wrote:The goal of Feminism is for there not to be a need for Feminism.

I'm going to try to catch up with this thread and contribute.

I'd say that's the goal for all types of socially directed organizations that form

Absolutely.

I like the coin analogy quite a bit. I do believe woman have taken a coin or two back, especially looking back at 60's/70's/80's. Having said that I don't think all of those coins have been given without a still existing reluctance. The overall problem is neither gender is fully committed to the issue or understands what the real issue is. For every strong willed and capable woman I know, I know one that is perfectly fine with a submissive life in a submissive role because she feels that what she is supposed to be/do. For every level headed and non-biased male I know I know a macho "bro" that believes his woman should be in the kitchen making sandwiches and pumping out kids. What I've learned is it's all about choice and what the response is to that choice. If a woman chooses to stay at home and play the more 1960's role and is happy with it that should be just as acceptable as a woman running a fortune 500 company. Either way it should be her choice to live that lifestyle and not have it be what is expected of her based on gender. The same should be said about men.

I was just trying (and failing) to say that it's my belief that "choice" in our society is often an illusion. So not all choices are good / helpful just because they are freely chosen, but not only that, somewhere there is a system which forces our "choices" into particular boxes. So the housewife may criticise what they call "choice feminism" because, as someone who is in poverty (for example), her lack of social manoeuvrability means that choice is not a luxury she has. (Ever noticed that a lot of people advocating "choice feminism" and "sexual freedom" are rich celebrities?) Someone will always be there to say that thinking systemically is pointless complication of things, but it's not that complicated really. Yes, the ideal world would be one in which everyone would be free to choose. But to achieve that, the scales need to be tipped the other way in terms of power. What I'm saying takes feminism away from being just about individual responsibility, and should also (in theory) stop us men thinking we're all guilty and women hate us for everything. Because honestly, if there is a systemic problem, there is no need for every individual in that system to feel guilty about it, just to be aware, and make it a priority to change the way they interact with the world as an individual. The same thing is true about race, or disability, or sexuality, or anything. I don't feel guilty about being a white male, but neither do I feel personally guilty when a black person reminds me that imperialism is white people's fault (and continues to this day).

I don't argue with the fact that sometimes individuals are born/raised/stuck with situations where they are confined to certain ways of life. People born into better situations usually have more choice. Perhaps I should say their windows of opportunity and avenues of choice are bigger and open longer.

I know a handful of true woman's rights advocates that have committed years to the issue and they have never made me feel personally guilty for being a man. If anything they have made me feel better about myself as a male and appreciate woman more. I have always been respectful of woman and never once thought of myself as superior just because I was a man. I think that is a niche group of Feminists at this point that try to use guilt tactics and perhaps miss the point of what Feminism is. Just like any movement I think it was more fierce in its uprisings to really get going.

I agree that a systemic change needs to happen but it starts with individual responsibility. It goes beyond just you and me. It is a generational problem/solution. You are right man isn't born thinking he is superior to woman, it is created by parenting and society. The more individuals that ahead to the belief and teach/practice it the more expedited the process will be.

I'm with you that I don't feel guilty for being a white male. Nor should I. I don't live as a sexist or a racist.

harmless wrote: I don't feel guilty about being a white male, but neither do I feel personally guilty when a black person reminds me that imperialism is white people's fault (and continues to this day).

broken iris wrote:

harmless wrote: I don't feel guilty about being a white male, but neither do I feel personally guilty when a black person reminds me that imperialism is white people's fault (and continues to this day).

Of course you should not feel guilty about that because they are either: (a) fucking with you or (b) so completely ignorant of human cultural, racial, and political history that their opinion is rubbish.

Kaius wrote:Brilliant Burt
You're rapidly moving up my favorite poster rankings

BurtReynolds wrote:

Kaius wrote:Brilliant Burt
You're rapidly moving up my favorite poster rankings

With most people I tend to peak around #3 or #4 before my shtick gets old and I fade into obscurity.

harmless wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:

Kaius wrote:Brilliant Burt
You're rapidly moving up my favorite poster rankings

With most people I tend to peak around #3 or #4 before my shtick gets old and I fade into obscurity.

Like Pearl Jam.

BurtReynolds wrote:

harmless wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:

Kaius wrote:Brilliant Burt
You're rapidly moving up my favorite poster rankings

With most people I tend to peak around #3 or #4 before my shtick gets old and I fade into obscurity.

Like Pearl Jam.

There is no reason to hurl insults!

harmless wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:

Kaius wrote:Brilliant Burt
You're rapidly moving up my favorite poster rankings

With most people I tend to peak around #3 or #4 before my shtick gets old and I fade into obscurity.

Like Pearl Jam.

Kaius wrote:Brilliant Burt
You're rapidly moving up my favorite poster rankings

Kaius wrote:I missed the old board

Thejambi wrote:.... The overall problem is neither gender is fully committed to the issue or understands what the real issue is.

Thejambi wrote: For every strong willed and capable woman I know, I know one that is perfectly fine with a submissive life in a submissive role because she feels that what she is supposed to be/do. For every level headed and non-biased male I know I know a macho "bro" that believes his woman should be in the kitchen making sandwiches and pumping out kids. What I've learned is it's all about choice and what the response is to that choice. If a woman chooses to stay at home and play the more 1960's role and is happy with it that should be just as acceptable as a woman running a fortune 500 company. Either way it should be her choice to live that lifestyle and not have it be what is expected of her based on gender. The same should be said about men.

broken iris wrote:

Thejambi wrote:.... The overall problem is neither gender is fully committed to the issue or understands what the real issue is.

"any scientist who couldn't explain to an eight-year-old what he was doing was a charlatan" - Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle

If you could clearly and concisely explain it me, it would be /thread, or maybe just point me to an example of a more just/feminine society.

Thejambi wrote: For every strong willed and capable woman I know, I know one that is perfectly fine with a submissive life in a submissive role because she feels that what she is supposed to be/do. For every level headed and non-biased male I know I know a macho "bro" that believes his woman should be in the kitchen making sandwiches and pumping out kids. What I've learned is it's all about choice and what the response is to that choice. If a woman chooses to stay at home and play the more 1960's role and is happy with it that should be just as acceptable as a woman running a fortune 500 company. Either way it should be her choice to live that lifestyle and not have it be what is expected of her based on gender. The same should be said about men.

I totally agree with this, and that is my perception of how Feminism/Democracy/Equality/Capitalism/Liberty could all blend in the end. It's not necessarily the explicit dismantling of the patriarchal culture which has driven human social evolution since the first monkeys banged, but the elimination of the biased and discriminatory factors that exclude people from it.

harmless wrote: You seem to think it's a choice between putting all women in charge, and all men in charge (in any case, I'm not sure why you'd feel threatened by the former);

harmless wrote: The system needs a fundamental rethink; as it is, it has the inevitable exclusion of minority groups built into it. We can't just make those better. That they exist is the issue.