Red Mosquito

philpritchard wrote:

elliseamos wrote:Another thing to remember is how young Kessel was (and still is). when he was in Boston he immediately endeared himself to the fans with his testicular cancer and a year or so later scoring 30 goals (unheard of in Boston to this day). I'm pretty sure that type of attention & success caused him to act & play a certain way which the team (Julien) didn't approve of. I'd also venture a guess that if Kessel backchecked the way that Seguin does, he'd be around still (I'm thinking of his days in Boston, not necessarily currently).

Fair enough. He still shies away from physical play as much as ever, but his backchecking and overall defensive game have come a long way. There were a couple of points (one in particular that I remember, and I think it was actually on Seguin) in Game 1 where he put his head down, charged back into the play and prevented Boston from getting a good scoring chance. I find his all-around game (aside from the physical aspect) has improved to the point where he's an underrated defensive player because people just assume he's still terrible. He's also become easily one of the top playmakers in the league. I guess I just assumed the media would at least pay attention to what he's done lately, but they seem to be stuck on what he was like before leaving Boston and they just assume he's the same guy with a different jersey.

What I really didn't get was the number of articles talking about how he's never been able to step it up in important moments. That's something he actually managed to do when he was in Boston in the playoffs.

to the Boston media, "step it up in important moments" for Kessel since the trade has been code for "against Boston", who he has, pretty much, sucked against

but as you said, he actually did step up in the playoffs and he was a HUGE part in getting the city back into the Bruins starting with that first Montreal series back in 2008

philpritchard wrote:

elliseamos wrote:Another thing to remember is how young Kessel was (and still is). when he was in Boston he immediately endeared himself to the fans with his testicular cancer and a year or so later scoring 30 goals (unheard of in Boston to this day). I'm pretty sure that type of attention & success caused him to act & play a certain way which the team (Julien) didn't approve of. I'd also venture a guess that if Kessel backchecked the way that Seguin does, he'd be around still (I'm thinking of his days in Boston, not necessarily currently).

Fair enough. He still shies away from physical play as much as ever, but his backchecking and overall defensive game have come a long way. There were a couple of points (one in particular that I remember, and I think it was actually on Seguin) in Game 1 where he put his head down, charged back into the play and prevented Boston from getting a good scoring chance. I find his all-around game (aside from the physical aspect) has improved to the point where he's an underrated defensive player because people just assume he's still terrible. He's also become easily one of the top playmakers in the league. I guess I just assumed the media would at least pay attention to what he's done lately, but they seem to be stuck on what he was like before leaving Boston and they just assume he's the same guy with a different jersey.

What I really didn't get was the number of articles talking about how he's never been able to step it up in important moments. That's something he actually managed to do when he was in Boston in the playoffs.

You do relaize that he was still a negative +/- this past season. Over his 4 years in Toronto he's a -41. He's 15th in assists this season, making him a good, not great playmaker. He wasn't the go to forward on the team for the first 30+ games this year. He's a mediocre first line player, would be good if there was more physical presence to his game. But due to that lack of grit, I view him more as a really good 2nd line player. Definitely not the forward I would have built around at that point in his career..

I think of Kessel as I do the Sedins before they came into their own. The Sedins were about Kessel's age before their game stepped up but much more sound defensively. So I do think there's lots of hope for the guy. He has the skill set, now he just has to get better on a game in, game out basis and add some grit to his game.

I do blame a lot of how Kessel is viewed on Burke. Burke overpaid him and oversold him to the media. Burke got swindled on the deal. He's going to viewed always in the light of what was given up to get him, and that's never going to reflect well on him even though that was not of his doing.

surfndestroy wrote:You do relaize that he was still a negative +/- this past season. Over his 4 years in Toronto he's a -41. He's 15th in assists this season, making him a good, not great playmaker. He wasn't the go to forward on the team for the first 30+ games this year. He's a mediocre first line player, would be good if there was more physical presence to his game. But due to that lack of grit, I view him more as a really good 2nd line player. Definitely not the forward I would have built around at that point in his career..

I think of Kessel as I do the Sedins before they came into their own. The Sedins were about Kessel's age before their game stepped up but much more sound defensively. So I do think there's lots of hope for the guy. He has the skill set, now he just has to get better on a game in, game out basis and add some grit to his game.

I do blame a lot of how Kessel is viewed on Burke. Burke overpaid him and oversold him to the media. Burke got swindled on the deal. He's going to viewed always in the light of what was given up to get him, and that's never going to reflect well on him even though that was not of his doing.

Claude Giroux was a -7 this year. I don't think anyone would argue that he's not a first line player.

Here's a list of players who finished ahead of Kessel both last year and this year in the scoring race:

1. Steven Stamkos

That's it. Stamkos. Kessel has finished 6th and 7th in NHL scoring the last two years. He's not just very good or a mediocre first line player... he's an elite offensive player who, admittedly, still has some holes in his game. I don't fully agree with the Sedin comparison because Kessel was an impact player much earlier and they at least had each other. If Kessel was playing with Kessel instead of Bozak, his numbers would likely be much gaudier.

surfndestroy wrote:

philpritchard wrote:

elliseamos wrote:Another thing to remember is how young Kessel was (and still is). when he was in Boston he immediately endeared himself to the fans with his testicular cancer and a year or so later scoring 30 goals (unheard of in Boston to this day). I'm pretty sure that type of attention & success caused him to act & play a certain way which the team (Julien) didn't approve of. I'd also venture a guess that if Kessel backchecked the way that Seguin does, he'd be around still (I'm thinking of his days in Boston, not necessarily currently).

Fair enough. He still shies away from physical play as much as ever, but his backchecking and overall defensive game have come a long way. There were a couple of points (one in particular that I remember, and I think it was actually on Seguin) in Game 1 where he put his head down, charged back into the play and prevented Boston from getting a good scoring chance. I find his all-around game (aside from the physical aspect) has improved to the point where he's an underrated defensive player because people just assume he's still terrible. He's also become easily one of the top playmakers in the league. I guess I just assumed the media would at least pay attention to what he's done lately, but they seem to be stuck on what he was like before leaving Boston and they just assume he's the same guy with a different jersey.

What I really didn't get was the number of articles talking about how he's never been able to step it up in important moments. That's something he actually managed to do when he was in Boston in the playoffs.

You do relaize that he was still a negative +/- this past season. Over his 4 years in Toronto he's a -41. He's 15th in assists this season, making him a good, not great playmaker. He wasn't the go to forward on the team for the first 30+ games this year. He's a mediocre first line player, would be good if there was more physical presence to his game. But due to that lack of grit, I view him more as a really good 2nd line player. Definitely not the forward I would have built around at that point in his career..

I think of Kessel as I do the Sedins before they came into their own. The Sedins were about Kessel's age before their game stepped up but much more sound defensively. So I do think there's lots of hope for the guy. He has the skill set, now he just has to get better on a game in, game out basis and add some grit to his game.

I do blame a lot of how Kessel is viewed on Burke. Burke overpaid him and oversold him to the media. Burke got swindled on the deal. He's going to viewed always in the light of what was given up to get him, and that's never going to reflect well on him even though that was not of his doing.

One thing on +/-: Blake Wheeler led the league in that one year (or came damn close) with the Bruins. It can be an effective measuring tool, but it can also be very misleading. It can also be a result of how good (or bad) your team is.

MattA75 wrote:One thing on +/-: Blake Wheeler led the league in that one year (or came damn close) with the Bruins. It can be an effective measuring tool, but it can also be very misleading. It can also be a result of how good (or bad) your team is.

I agree with you but Kessel has only had on positive +/- season in the NHL, including those first three years when he was on a good Boston team. Is he getting better at two-way play? No doubt but he still has a way to go. I think he can get there but he's got to work at it every shift.

surfndestroy wrote:

MattA75 wrote:One thing on +/-: Blake Wheeler led the league in that one year (or came damn close) with the Bruins. It can be an effective measuring tool, but it can also be very misleading. It can also be a result of how good (or bad) your team is.

I agree with you but Kessel has only had on positive +/- season in the NHL, including those first three years when he was on a good Boston team. Is he getting better at two-way play? No doubt but he still has a way to go. I think he can get there but he's got to work at it every shift.

In Kessel's first three years, the Bruins only had one really good team. They were terrible his first year, they made the playoffs as an 8 seed his second year (barely at that, though they really started to play more like a 5 or 6 seed the last month or so of that season, as the entire group of young players began making big leaps in maturation), and then they dominated in his final year.

MattA75 wrote:

surfndestroy wrote:

MattA75 wrote:One thing on +/-: Blake Wheeler led the league in that one year (or came damn close) with the Bruins. It can be an effective measuring tool, but it can also be very misleading. It can also be a result of how good (or bad) your team is.

I agree with you but Kessel has only had on positive +/- season in the NHL, including those first three years when he was on a good Boston team. Is he getting better at two-way play? No doubt but he still has a way to go. I think he can get there but he's got to work at it every shift.

In Kessel's first three years, the Bruins only had one really good team. They were terrible his first year, they made the playoffs as an 8 seed his second year (barely at that, though they really started to play more like a 5 or 6 seed the last month or so of that season, as the entire group of young players began making big leaps in maturation), and then they dominated in his final year.

Yeah, and there's just too much that factors into a players +/- to suggest it has much value in describing a player's defensive value. Kessel's career best +23 came while he was playing primarily in front of Tim Thomas, who won the Vezina that year. His career worst -20 came while he was playing in front of Giguere, Gustavsson and Reimer. Boston goalies had a .927 SV% that year, while those Toronto goalies had a .907 SV%. That's probably enough of a difference to account for at least half of the difference in his best and worst seasons.

philpritchard wrote:Yeah, and there's just too much that factors into a players +/- to suggest it has much value in describing a player's defensive value. Kessel's career best +23 came while he was playing primarily in front of Tim Thomas, who won the Vezina that year. His career worst -20 came while he was playing in front of Giguere, Gustavsson and Reimer. Boston goalies had a .927 SV% that year, while those Toronto goalies had a .907 SV%. That's probably enough of a difference to account for at least half of the difference in his best and worst seasons.

I know you're really high on Kessel, what do you think of my comparison of him to the Sedin's before they made the step to elite players? Kessel may be a bit ahead offencesively but further behind defensively.

surfndestroy wrote:I know you're really high on Kessel, what do you think of my comparison of him to the Sedin's before they made the step to elite players? Kessel may be a bit ahead offencesively but further behind defensively.

I'm high on Kessel because I've watched him play almost every game since he came to Toronto and I've seen the way his effort and compete level have improved and the way he's become more committed to not being a defensive liability. Honestly, a couple years ago when he went through that 18 game goalless streak or whatever it was, I questioned his value as much as anyone else. He came out last year and had completely changed. In the past, when he wasn't putting the puck in the net he was completely useless. Now, I feel like some of his best games have come when he hasn't registered a point. It's like he gets pissed off now when they can't score and works harder to try to get them back in the game, where in the past he would just get frustrated and float around.

I get the Sedin comparison because they struggled right away, like he did, then blossomed into point-a-game players, like he has, and then they stepped it up to elite players, like he... well, I can hope. I don't watch them enough to know what their defensive game is like now, let alone their first few years in the league. Like I said, though, I think it's a bit different because they had: a) each other and b) established stars in Naslund and Bertuzzi to carry the offensive load until they were 25-26. Kessel's been the go to guy in Toronto since he was 22, and he did it almost entirely alone until Lupul came along last year.

Anyway, the whole point of all that is that I think Kessel is much better than most people outside of Toronto (particularly Boston) tend to give him credit for.

philpritchard wrote:That's something he actually managed to do when he was in Boston in the playoffs.

after julien benched him. the more i think about it, the more i think chiarelli & co. wanted to protect themselves from signing him after a contract-year-season.

philpritchard wrote:

surfndestroy wrote:I know you're really high on Kessel, what do you think of my comparison of him to the Sedin's before they made the step to elite players? Kessel may be a bit ahead offencesively but further behind defensively.

I'm high on Kessel because I've watched him play almost every game since he came to Toronto and I've seen the way his effort and compete level have improved and the way he's become more committed to not being a defensive liability. Honestly, a couple years ago when he went through that 18 game goalless streak or whatever it was, I questioned his value as much as anyone else. He came out last year and had completely changed. In the past, when he wasn't putting the puck in the net he was completely useless. Now, I feel like some of his best games have come when he hasn't registered a point. It's like he gets pissed off now when they can't score and works harder to try to get them back in the game, where in the past he would just get frustrated and float around.

I get the Sedin comparison because they struggled right away, like he did, then blossomed into point-a-game players, like he has, and then they stepped it up to elite players, like he... well, I can hope. I don't watch them enough to know what their defensive game is like now, let alone their first few years in the league. Like I said, though, I think it's a bit different because they had: a) each other and b) established stars in Naslund and Bertuzzi to carry the offensive load until they were 25-26. Kessel's been the go to guy in Toronto since he was 22, and he did it almost entirely alone until Lupul came along last year.

Anyway, the whole point of all that is that I think Kessel is much better than most people outside of Toronto (particularly Boston) tend to give him credit for.

Sedins have always been good defensively. They play such a strong puck possession game that it's hard for the other team to get anything going offensively. Plus they are absolute studs along the boards.

Kessel is always going to wear the mantle that Burke made for him. But that was the only way to justify the contract and what they gave up for him. I think the media will always be down on him until he has some playoff success and shows up against Boston. He has basically been a ghost for four years against Boston.

I hope Ottawa wipes the floor with Montreal tonight...a suspension for that hit is a joke...

MattA75 wrote:I hope Ottawa wipes the floor with Montreal tonight...a suspension for that hit is a joke...

Especially since he had already served a game misconduct. The only reason he got suspended is because Eller hit his face on the ice, which made it look really bad. There's now way that was worth a suspension, let alone a longer suspension than what Ference got.

elliseamos wrote:

philpritchard wrote:That's something he actually managed to do when he was in Boston in the playoffs.

after julien benched him. the more i think about it, the more i think chiarelli & co. wanted to protect themselves from signing him after a contract-year-season.

Kessel is a good player, but not good enough to build a team around, and certainly not the kind of player character-wise that you would want to build a team around. That trade was the best thing that could have happened to the Bruins' organization.

numbers wrote:

elliseamos wrote:

philpritchard wrote:That's something he actually managed to do when he was in Boston in the playoffs.

after julien benched him. the more i think about it, the more i think chiarelli & co. wanted to protect themselves from signing him after a contract-year-season.

Kessel is a good player, but not good enough to build a team around, and certainly not the kind of player character-wise that you would want to build a team around. That trade was the best thing that could have happened to the Bruins' organization.

If nothing else, it gave everyone a new trade to obsess over to help them forget about the Thornton trade!

philpritchard wrote:

numbers wrote:

elliseamos wrote:

philpritchard wrote:That's something he actually managed to do when he was in Boston in the playoffs.

after julien benched him. the more i think about it, the more i think chiarelli & co. wanted to protect themselves from signing him after a contract-year-season.

Kessel is a good player, but not good enough to build a team around, and certainly not the kind of player character-wise that you would want to build a team around. That trade was the best thing that could have happened to the Bruins' organization.

If nothing else, it gave everyone a new trade to obsess over to help them forget about the Thornton trade!

if they paid thornton, they wouldn't have been able to sign chara. so i'll take chara and a cup over jumbo joe.

Plus, they used Brad Stuart to get Ference, who has become a leader on the team(a hell of alot better leader than Thornton was despite their large skill difference.) They would have never gotten Savard either if they had still had Thornton.

I'm pretty sure some of us went over this years ago: I have no problem with the fact that they traded Thornton and used that money to sign Chara. And yes, it opened up a spot for Savard to take the first-line centre role. It was a good idea to trade Thornton, and it was a bad trade. It was a good idea for the Leafs to trade for Kessel, too. That doesn't mean it was a good trade. Boston should have gotten at least a similar return that they got for Kessel.

They traded him as if it was a pure salary dump when he was probably the best centre in the league.

Oh they absolutely could have gotten more for him, but I dont think the trade was as egregious looking back as I did at the time. I do remember being bullshit at the time because Heatley had just gone straight up for Hossa and the Bruins didnt get a player near that level back.

philpritchard wrote:

MattA75 wrote:I hope Ottawa wipes the floor with Montreal tonight...a suspension for that hit is a joke...

Especially since he had already served a game misconduct. The only reason he got suspended is because Eller hit his face on the ice, which made it look really bad. There's now way that was worth a suspension, let alone a longer suspension than what Ference got.

I don't know what the eague expects a d-man to do in that play. His feet didn't leave the ice, his elbow was tucked in, he came from the front. It's a contact sport, shit happens.

If they want to make that hit suspendable, then I think they should give players the option to just wrap the player in a vulnerable position up, have the ref blow the whistle and have an offensive zone face-off for the team that gave up the big hit. If the Ottawa player does not play the man, he risks a breakaway.

I wish the league would just change the capping on shoulder and elbow pads allowed and put a much smaller size limit on that equipment as well. If they can limit goalie equipment size in an effort to get more offence, you'd think they could limit equipment in the name of player safety,