TV: Pluribus (Apple TV)

[Ms Harmless]

SUCH a good point, Ms H.

And that's an aspect of the show I hadn't really considered. That's a good call.

I love cult stories (I'm writing one, was brought up in Americanised weird Evangelicalism etc) so this is the window I viewed this in from the first episode; and as an X-Files fan, I literally said "is this an alien invasion?" seconds before Seehorn did, and the guy on the TV said no (and I still think probably yes... if the aliens can make us a hive mind we are easier to invade)

[Ms Harmless]

Because I value individuality and I think that's part of what makes us human. And what makes humanity interesting. So, anything challenging that, especially by making everything easier is suspect. Do experiences still matter without friction? If you can do anything, go anywhere, have anything you want without an work, is that valuable? Is that interesting?

Is interesting human individuality better than peace for all things? Not necessarily "easier", but demonstrably better. No more crime or poverty or unnecessary suffering. Why wouldn't experiences cease to matter without friction? Imagine knowing everything everybody else knows? What's not interesting about that? Everything is for one unified purpose, for the good of everything. No more of, like, I'm horny now so I'm going to go fuck something.

I think this show is about Vince struggling with AI and algorithms. I imagine as an independent thinker and an artist that he's very anti-AI. Right now the show is presenting AI as a "virus" that infects humanity without permission, says it'll make everything better, but really is the death of us all.

I saw he mentioned in interviews recently his disgust for AI, so you're definitely right about that. But I don't see how humanity sharing one consciousness and actual intelligence is analogous to an artificial intelligence, or great "plagiarism machine", as he put it.

To me, the central conflict is "we must hold on to our humanity no matter what."

Man, I still don't see how you conclude individuality = humanity. She is arguably "less" human than the collective.

This alien virus didn't ask permission. They have given no rational for what they've done. All they've said is "it's better this way, trust us!" That's a great way for me to not trust them.

If everything is better, who cares?

I guess, my argument would be... is everything better? I'd argue it is not. I'd also argue be careful of any charlatan who "but look, my way is better!" especially when they don't give you an opt-in.

I'm not sure you're effectively imagining what it might be like to actually share the same consciousness as everyone else. There would be no reason to harm anybody, or to get a leg up on anyone, because they are also you. You simply want to survive and thrive. And you have the resources of all humanity at your disposal.

I can imagine a twist in which they are only pretending to be happy or whatever, but so far that seems to not be the case.

for what it's worth, cults are successful because time and time again, people have said they want this

True, but this is not a good analogy because in cults people are lied to and manipulated. This seems actually quite utopian because all are equal and sharing each other's thoughts. There can be no deception unless you are actually on the outside.

To her though, yes, it must appear that way, with her very limited knowledge.

Utopia isn't real though

speaking of which, I've been trying to find an angle to write a poem on the theme of dystopia, or utopia for a comp... and maybe I can write a response to this show

[epilogue]

SUCH a good point, Ms H.

And that's an aspect of the show I hadn't really considered. That's a good call.

I love cult stories (I'm writing one, was brought up in Americanised weird Evangelicalism etc) so this is the window I viewed this in from the first episode; and as an X-Files fan, I literally said "is this an alien invasion?" seconds before Seehorn did, and the guy on the TV said no (and I still think probably yes... if the aliens can make us a hive mind we are easier to invade)

Absolutely, yes. I definitely had the same reaction (as a fellow X-Files fan) to the TV announcer.

Also, good on you for writing a cult story! I can't wait to read that!

[tree_]

Because I value individuality and I think that's part of what makes us human. And what makes humanity interesting. So, anything challenging that, especially by making everything easier is suspect. Do experiences still matter without friction? If you can do anything, go anywhere, have anything you want without an work, is that valuable? Is that interesting?

Is interesting human individuality better than peace for all things? Not necessarily "easier", but demonstrably better. No more crime or poverty or unnecessary suffering. Why wouldn't experiences cease to matter without friction? Imagine knowing everything everybody else knows? What's not interesting about that? Everything is for one unified purpose, for the good of everything. No more of, like, I'm horny now so I'm going to go fuck something.

I think this show is about Vince struggling with AI and algorithms. I imagine as an independent thinker and an artist that he's very anti-AI. Right now the show is presenting AI as a "virus" that infects humanity without permission, says it'll make everything better, but really is the death of us all.

I saw he mentioned in interviews recently his disgust for AI, so you're definitely right about that. But I don't see how humanity sharing one consciousness and actual intelligence is analogous to an artificial intelligence, or great "plagiarism machine", as he put it.

To me, the central conflict is "we must hold on to our humanity no matter what."

Man, I still don't see how you conclude individuality = humanity. She is arguably "less" human than the collective.

This alien virus didn't ask permission. They have given no rational for what they've done. All they've said is "it's better this way, trust us!" That's a great way for me to not trust them.

If everything is better, who cares?

I guess, my argument would be... is everything better? I'd argue it is not. I'd also argue be careful of any charlatan who "but look, my way is better!" especially when they don't give you an opt-in.

I'm not sure you're effectively imagining what it might be like to actually share the same consciousness as everyone else. There would be no reason to harm anybody, or to get a leg up on anyone, because they are also you. You simply want to survive and thrive. And you have the resources of all humanity at your disposal.

I can imagine a twist in which they are only pretending to be happy or whatever, but so far that seems to not be the case.

for what it's worth, cults are successful because time and time again, people have said they want this

True, but this is not a good analogy because in cults people are lied to and manipulated. This seems actually quite utopian because all are equal and sharing each other's thoughts. There can be no deception unless you are actually on the outside.

To her though, yes, it must appear that way, with her very limited knowledge.

Utopia isn't real though

speaking of which, I've been trying to find an angle to write a poem on the theme of dystopia, or utopia for a comp... and maybe I can write a response to this show

No, it is not real. And even from the standpoint of sharing one consciousness one can easily imagine problems. But the question is, is it better?

I would like to read that if you do write it.

By the way, my sympathies all the way. I despise religions and cults and glad you made it out. (I escaped Catholicism)

[Ms Harmless]

Because I value individuality and I think that's part of what makes us human. And what makes humanity interesting. So, anything challenging that, especially by making everything easier is suspect. Do experiences still matter without friction? If you can do anything, go anywhere, have anything you want without an work, is that valuable? Is that interesting?

Is interesting human individuality better than peace for all things? Not necessarily "easier", but demonstrably better. No more crime or poverty or unnecessary suffering. Why wouldn't experiences cease to matter without friction? Imagine knowing everything everybody else knows? What's not interesting about that? Everything is for one unified purpose, for the good of everything. No more of, like, I'm horny now so I'm going to go fuck something.

I think this show is about Vince struggling with AI and algorithms. I imagine as an independent thinker and an artist that he's very anti-AI. Right now the show is presenting AI as a "virus" that infects humanity without permission, says it'll make everything better, but really is the death of us all.

I saw he mentioned in interviews recently his disgust for AI, so you're definitely right about that. But I don't see how humanity sharing one consciousness and actual intelligence is analogous to an artificial intelligence, or great "plagiarism machine", as he put it.

To me, the central conflict is "we must hold on to our humanity no matter what."

Man, I still don't see how you conclude individuality = humanity. She is arguably "less" human than the collective.

This alien virus didn't ask permission. They have given no rational for what they've done. All they've said is "it's better this way, trust us!" That's a great way for me to not trust them.

If everything is better, who cares?

I guess, my argument would be... is everything better? I'd argue it is not. I'd also argue be careful of any charlatan who "but look, my way is better!" especially when they don't give you an opt-in.

I'm not sure you're effectively imagining what it might be like to actually share the same consciousness as everyone else. There would be no reason to harm anybody, or to get a leg up on anyone, because they are also you. You simply want to survive and thrive. And you have the resources of all humanity at your disposal.

I can imagine a twist in which they are only pretending to be happy or whatever, but so far that seems to not be the case.

for what it's worth, cults are successful because time and time again, people have said they want this

True, but this is not a good analogy because in cults people are lied to and manipulated. This seems actually quite utopian because all are equal and sharing each other's thoughts. There can be no deception unless you are actually on the outside.

To her though, yes, it must appear that way, with her very limited knowledge.

Utopia isn't real though

speaking of which, I've been trying to find an angle to write a poem on the theme of dystopia, or utopia for a comp... and maybe I can write a response to this show

No, it is not real. And even from the standpoint of sharing one consciousness one can easily imagine problems. But the question is, is it better?

I would like to read that if you do write it.

By the way, my sympathies all the way. I despise religions and cults and glad you made it out. (I escaped Catholicism)

thank you tree

[tree_]

My pleasure

[wease]

if you think "we should all collectively be one and the same", that's all lovely and very kumbaya on the surface, but then everyone has to find a set of values and ideals, choices and ideals to match; which do you choose, yours or mine or theirs? what do you take and what do you leave? most people who say "everyone should be and move as one!" are actually saying "everyone should be like me"

I'm not saying in the logic of actual reality we should all be forced to adopt the same beliefs and values. But in the logic of the reality of the show, so far, it seems everyone is happy and benefitting from sharing the same consciousness. And that's way different than forcing everyone to cooperate. Until there's evidence it's actually harmful, I'm going to assume it's better.

at this stage I'd say you are reading the authorial intention correctly, if not searching for cracks in the armour like I am; I look forward to your response on the inevitable decline of the facade!

I really hope it goes the route where it is indeed actually better in every way, and her struggle to hold onto her individuality gets chipped away more and more until her inevitable surrender. Not sure we've seen that story before. And it really tickles me and so many ways I can't stand it.

If the show goes that direction, I’m fucking out. Rhea Seehorn be damned. What a treacherous turn of events that would be.

[tree_]

if you think "we should all collectively be one and the same", that's all lovely and very kumbaya on the surface, but then everyone has to find a set of values and ideals, choices and ideals to match; which do you choose, yours or mine or theirs? what do you take and what do you leave? most people who say "everyone should be and move as one!" are actually saying "everyone should be like me"

I'm not saying in the logic of actual reality we should all be forced to adopt the same beliefs and values. But in the logic of the reality of the show, so far, it seems everyone is happy and benefitting from sharing the same consciousness. And that's way different than forcing everyone to cooperate. Until there's evidence it's actually harmful, I'm going to assume it's better.

at this stage I'd say you are reading the authorial intention correctly, if not searching for cracks in the armour like I am; I look forward to your response on the inevitable decline of the facade!

I really hope it goes the route where it is indeed actually better in every way, and her struggle to hold onto her individuality gets chipped away more and more until her inevitable surrender. Not sure we've seen that story before. And it really tickles me and so many ways I can't stand it.

If the show goes that direction, I’m fucking out. Rhea Seehorn be damned. What a treacherous turn of events that would be.

Why?

[tree_]

I really think it's heading this way, especially because of how episode 2 ended.

[tree_]

Vince's elevator pitch: "the world's most miserable person is desperately trying to save the planet from happiness"

[Simple Torture]

I am pretty surprised that when the yahoos suggested they all go to the Guggenheim, Carol didn’t pick up on the fact that, yeah, art is nice, but once they’re all assimilated, that’s a wrap for the artistic project of mankind. Everyone understanding each other is the death knell for that. I think it’s a stroke of genius making her a romantasy author who churns out slop; when that guy started mansplaining mizzenmasts to her I was lol’ing.

[tree_]

I am pretty surprised that when the yahoos suggested they all go to the Guggenheim, Carol didn’t pick up on the fact that, yeah, art is nice, but once they’re all assimilated, that’s a wrap for the artistic project of mankind. Everyone understanding each other is the death knell for that. I think it’s a stroke of genius making her a romantasy author who churns out slop; when that guy started mansplaining mizzenmasts to her I was lol’ing.

what do you mean by "the artistic project of human kind"? And why can't there still be art when there is one shared consciousness?

[wease]

Looks like ther will already be two seasons.

I do wish he’d picked somewhere other than Albuquerque, tho. I halfway keep expecting characters from BB/BCS to show up.

[tree_]

Looks like ther will already be two seasons.

I do wish he’d picked somewhere other than Albuquerque, tho. I halfway keep expecting characters from BB/BCS to show up.

I heard him say in an interview there were no reasons to keep the show in Albuquerque other than he loves the crew he's been working with there and wanted to keep that going.

[epilogue]

I am pretty surprised that when the yahoos suggested they all go to the Guggenheim, Carol didn’t pick up on the fact that, yeah, art is nice, but once they’re all assimilated, that’s a wrap for the artistic project of mankind. Everyone understanding each other is the death knell for that. I think it’s a stroke of genius making her a romantasy author who churns out slop; when that guy started mansplaining mizzenmasts to her I was lol’ing.

absolutely

[Simple Torture]

I am pretty surprised that when the yahoos suggested they all go to the Guggenheim, Carol didn’t pick up on the fact that, yeah, art is nice, but once they’re all assimilated, that’s a wrap for the artistic project of mankind. Everyone understanding each other is the death knell for that. I think it’s a stroke of genius making her a romantasy author who churns out slop; when that guy started mansplaining mizzenmasts to her I was lol’ing.

what do you mean by "the artistic project of human kind"? And why can't there still be art when there is one shared consciousness?

Why would anyone make art if there’s no obstacles to connecting with or understanding other people? You don’t have to express yourself and your innermost desires, fears, or anxieties if every other mind on the planet has instant access to your entire consciousness. Carol was feeling so empty before the incident because she knew exactly what her audience wanted and she fed them exactly what they wanted; there was no empathy, no discovery, just checking off boxes. A machine could’ve done what she was doing.

Shit, I wasn’t convinced this show was about AI and now I feel like I talked myself into it. Thanks a lot!

[epilogue]

I am pretty surprised that when the yahoos suggested they all go to the Guggenheim, Carol didn’t pick up on the fact that, yeah, art is nice, but once they’re all assimilated, that’s a wrap for the artistic project of mankind. Everyone understanding each other is the death knell for that. I think it’s a stroke of genius making her a romantasy author who churns out slop; when that guy started mansplaining mizzenmasts to her I was lol’ing.

what do you mean by "the artistic project of human kind"? And why can't there still be art when there is one shared consciousness?

Why would anyone make art if there’s no obstacles to connecting with or understanding other people? You don’t have to express yourself and your innermost desires, fears, or anxieties if every other mind on the planet has instant access to your entire consciousness. Carol was feeling so empty before the incident because she knew exactly what her audience wanted and she fed them exactly what they wanted; there was no empathy, no discovery, just checking off boxes. A machine could’ve done what she was doing.

Shit, I wasn’t convinced this show was about AI and now I feel like I talked myself into it. Thanks a lot!

You're welcome

[tree_]

I am pretty surprised that when the yahoos suggested they all go to the Guggenheim, Carol didn’t pick up on the fact that, yeah, art is nice, but once they’re all assimilated, that’s a wrap for the artistic project of mankind. Everyone understanding each other is the death knell for that. I think it’s a stroke of genius making her a romantasy author who churns out slop; when that guy started mansplaining mizzenmasts to her I was lol’ing.

what do you mean by "the artistic project of human kind"? And why can't there still be art when there is one shared consciousness?

Why would anyone make art if there’s no obstacles to connecting with or understanding other people? You don’t have to express yourself and your innermost desires, fears, or anxieties if every other mind on the planet has instant access to your entire consciousness. Carol was feeling so empty before the incident because she knew exactly what her audience wanted and she fed them exactly what they wanted; there was no empathy, no discovery, just checking off boxes. A machine could’ve done what she was doing.

Shit, I wasn’t convinced this show was about AI and now I feel like I talked myself into it. Thanks a lot!

If pain and suffering are necessary for the sake of art, I say fuck art! Why can't art exist without the pain and suffering inflicted by the "other"? If humanity shared one consciousness, surely it still would desire beauty, but of a more elevated kind, difficult for one single mind to imagine.

[Simple Torture]

I am pretty surprised that when the yahoos suggested they all go to the Guggenheim, Carol didn’t pick up on the fact that, yeah, art is nice, but once they’re all assimilated, that’s a wrap for the artistic project of mankind. Everyone understanding each other is the death knell for that. I think it’s a stroke of genius making her a romantasy author who churns out slop; when that guy started mansplaining mizzenmasts to her I was lol’ing.

what do you mean by "the artistic project of human kind"? And why can't there still be art when there is one shared consciousness?

Why would anyone make art if there’s no obstacles to connecting with or understanding other people? You don’t have to express yourself and your innermost desires, fears, or anxieties if every other mind on the planet has instant access to your entire consciousness. Carol was feeling so empty before the incident because she knew exactly what her audience wanted and she fed them exactly what they wanted; there was no empathy, no discovery, just checking off boxes. A machine could’ve done what she was doing.

Shit, I wasn’t convinced this show was about AI and now I feel like I talked myself into it. Thanks a lot!

If pain and suffering are necessary for the sake of art, I say fuck art! Why can't art exist without the pain and suffering inflicted by the "other"? If humanity shared one consciousness, surely it still would desire beauty, but of a more elevated kind, difficult for one single mind to imagine.

I think you misunderstand where I’m coming from: I didn’t say pain and suffering are necessary for art, but I can see how that could come across with “fears” and “anxieties.” Replace those with anything you like—as long as there have been people, there’s been a limit to how much language can express what we feel inside and how much we understand others, and art absolutely bridges that gap (“Man, you won’t believe how crazy the mammoth hunt was today…no, I can’t explain it, you had to be there…here, let me draw it on the cave wall”), so if there’s no gap anymore, why would there be art?

Even if we’re all designed to seek beauty, I don’t think the collective consciousness has the need to make any more of it; someone in the 8 billion minds has memorized the poems of Omar Khayyam, so no one needs to read those books anymore. Every brain remembers it instantly. Someone once restored the Mona Lisa and knows it brushstroke by brushstroke, so no one has to ever go see it again. Someone has seen the sun set over the Grand Canyon, someone has seen the northern lights, someone is a virtuoso violin player. At least one person has seen the most beautiful woman in the world. Once we’ve seen these things, we have an urge to experience them again, because it can be fresh every time, but if you’re part of a group consciousness with perfect recall, what’s the point?

[Ms Harmless]

also, though, it's a bit like The Matrix or (I think) The Truman Show, which were about needing to find a way out of a life in which you're trapped in "sleep" with everyone sharing in your dream, and to wake up in a life lived authentically as yourself; so yeah, it could be about AI, but there's also (as always in this sort of thing) a queerness / transness metaphor, too; I made art before I came out to the world, and now that I'm out, I still make art but the art is very different, in part because I don't have to say the same things with my art: I'm more conscious of what I want to say, and I don't have to fight as hard for people to listen, so I can move into different and new subjects