Red Mosquito

Burt's killing it in this thread. I'm going to bow out gracefully and let him handle this. He's doing a much better job than I am.

durdencommatyler wrote:Burt's killing it in this thread. I'm going to bow out gracefully and let him handle this. He's doing a much better job than I am.

no I agree with you, too, but since you are agreeing with me, i am really agreeing with myself, because I am full of myself, so I love Off He Goes even more!

digster wrote:

Lament wrote: But that's exactly what makes it narcissistic. If he were singing about some aloof friend, then it's observant. When you find out he's singing about himself, then it becomes self-centered. If Ed wrote a song that was three minutes of "He's a really great musician and he's inspirational and had a great career and supports really noble causes" and it were about Neil Young, it'd be a nice tribute to a hero. If it were about himself, it'd be narcissistic. Knowing who/what he's talking about it pretty vital to the discussion.

I guess I should amend my statement to saying that it may be narcissistic but it seems irrelevant. If he hadn't said that in an interview, it's doubtful we would be having this conversation, as there's nothing in the song itself that would make you think narcissism. There's a certain amount of narcisissism that's helpful, if not essential, in doing the kind of songwriting Ed does. He does nothing different here than he did espousing about fame and telling people this was not for them during Vitalogy.

Part of the problem for me is that I thought it was about Eddie from day 1 and so was turned off right away.

And I think there is lots more going on in vitalogy than writing about fame. Even if there wasn't, part of the genius of that record is its ability to also make something intensely personal about the listener as well. The I's in vitalogy hit the listener as we's

BurtReynolds wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:Burt's killing it in this thread. I'm going to bow out gracefully and let him handle this. He's doing a much better job than I am.

no I agree with you, too, but since you are agreeing with me, i am really agreeing with myself, because I am full of myself, so I love Off He Goes even more!

BurtReynolds wrote:He's a big story song guy. Even if this song is, at its core, about himself or how he thinks others see him, he writes about characters. He gives them their own traits the same way an author might. Its a song about a character based on an aspect of himself, not a literal song about himself. To me, the character sounds like a troubled, isolated and lost soul (a common theme on No Code), not someone who is just full of himself.

And that's why you like the song. It's a plausible read. But it isn't what I hear, or lament hears, which is why we're turned off by it

stip wrote:Even if there wasn't, part of the genius of that record is its ability to also make something intensely personal about the listener as well. The I's in vitalogy hit the listener as we's

I agree. But I also happen to feel the same way about Off He Goes.

The character Ed sings about in that song, Ed or no, is absolutely familiar and relatable to me. Back in high school I had a lot of friends say to me, "Are you sure he didn't write that song about you?" I didn't feel that way when I listened to it. It didn't occur to me until others started pointing it out. But I've always felt a kinship with Off He Goes. The song means a lot to me.

If nothing else, I think this has been a great discussion. I've missed this. Thanks, team.

stip wrote: Part of the problem for me is that I thought it was about Eddie from day 1 and so was turned off right away.

And I think there is lots more going on in vitalogy than writing about fame. Even if there wasn't, part of the genius of that record is its ability to also make something intensely personal about the listener as well. The I's in vitalogy hit the listener as we's

Speaking from my experience, I know my first thought on this was definitely not "he's singing from the POV of a friend of his about himself in the third person." That's a very convoluted first impression to get.

I'm not really sure there's much difference between what's happening in Off He Goes vs. Vitalogy. Is it possible you love the latter and are indifferent to the former, which enlarges the narcissism for you in Off He Goes and buries it for you with Vitalogy? I know that happens with me and I would suggest with everyone. If we love a song and there are faults, we'll learn to like them or they don't bother us, and vice versa with a song we're not fond of.

durdencommatyler wrote:I think fame and stalkers and people driving into your house and your face on every magazine and everyone wanting a piece of you and an anti-trust lawsuit is pretty heavy shit. I can't even begin to imagine what that is. Regardless of size, that's a lot to take on, for anyone, but especially for someone who doesn't really want it.

So then you're saying the things he deals with are bigger than the ordinary? I agree with this being what he's putting forth here, but then how is it not narcissistic? "Guys, I'm dealing with a lot of things that you can't understand. It wears me down. But don't worry, I'm still a strong guy. Everything around me is just more fucked up." It's not a case like Corduroy where he's singing about the extraordinary things he's dealing with, and the commentary about how it affects him is secondary. The main point is "this is how these things affect me" to the extent that the issues are merely referred to as "the surrounding bullshit." It's a very self-involved narrative.

BurtReynolds wrote:He's a big story song guy. He writes characters. Even if this song is, at its core, about himself or how he thinks others see him, he writes about characters. He gives them their own traits the same way an author might. Its a song about a character based on an aspect of himself, not a literal song about himself. To me, the character sounds like a troubled, isolated and lost soul (a common theme on No Code), not someone who is just full of himself.

I don't buy it. This side of the album starts with God personally handing him down challenges, and ends with the toll these great challenges are taking on him. I agree he sounds like a troubled, isolated, and lost soul. That doesn't make it not narcissistic. Off He Goes seems to be the high point of a guy whose fascinations have ceased to have a reach beyond his own skin. People are troubled, isolated, and lost. There's a difference between singing about what has made you feel these things and simply singing about how you are these things. The latter is narcissistic.

durdencommatyler wrote:The character Ed sings about in that song, Ed or no, is absolutely familiar and relatable to me. Back in high school I had a lot of friends say to me, "Are you sure he didn't write that song about you?" I didn't feel that way when I listened to it. It didn't occur to me until others started pointing it out. But I've always felt a kinship with Off He Goes. The song means a lot to me.

But like I said before, I don't see any problem with someone saying "I like this because I can re-interpret it in a way that connects with me," like in the example I gave of people who feel a kinship with Alive even though their mother never attempted to have sex with them. But just like that doesn't make Alive stop being about incest, that doesn't make Off He Goes stop being narcissistic in its inception.

It's one thing to think Alive is a self-affirming song when it's about incest, or to think Better Man is a love song when that's clearly not the case. But I don't see anyone here misinterpreting the story being told in Off He Goes. They're just viewing it through the parallel situations in their own life rather than limiting it to solely being about Eddie Vedder the person.

digster wrote:I'm not really sure there's much difference between what's happening in Off He Goes vs. Vitalogy.

In Vitalogy the effects things are taking on him are presented in a secondary fashion as being the results of what he's going through. Lives are "opened and trashed." His table "Got so crowded." They "stormed his room." He's "being shoved." The things he's going through are the main points of the songs. Off He Goes is about the the results of what he's going through without the context of "these are the fucked up things I'm dealing with." That makes a big difference to me.

Lament wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:I think fame and stalkers and people driving into your house and your face on every magazine and everyone wanting a piece of you and an anti-trust lawsuit is pretty heavy shit. I can't even begin to imagine what that is. Regardless of size, that's a lot to take on, for anyone, but especially for someone who doesn't really want it.

So then you're saying the things he deals with are bigger than the ordinary? I agree with this being what he's putting forth here, but then how is it not narcissistic? "Guys, I'm dealing with a lot of things that you can't understand. It wears me down. But don't worry, I'm still a strong guy. Everything around me is just more fucked up." It's not a case like Corduroy where he's singing about the extraordinary things he's dealing with, and the commentary about how it affects him is secondary. The main point is "this is how these things affect me" to the extent that the issues are merely referred to as "the surrounding bullshit." It's a very self-involved narrative.

I guess I just don't see how there's anything in the song that shows Ed having an excessive or erotic interest in himself or his personal appearance. It's a story about what it's like when friends fracture and how "the surrounding bullshit" affects perceptions on both sides. It's a universal theme, and hardly narcissistic in this case. At least, to me.

digster wrote:It's one thing to think Alive is a self-affirming song when it's about incest, or to think Better Man is a love song when that's clearly not the case. But I don't see anyone here misinterpreting the story being told in Off He Goes. They're just viewing it through the parallel situations in their own life rather than limiting it to Eddie Vedder the person.

And that's fine. But the song was written by Eddie Vedder the person about Eddie Vedder the person. You can repurpose it to be about yourself and relate to it, but that doesn't change the fact that in the context in which it was written, it's a pretty narcissistic tale.

Lament wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:The character Ed sings about in that song, Ed or no, is absolutely familiar and relatable to me. Back in high school I had a lot of friends say to me, "Are you sure he didn't write that song about you?" I didn't feel that way when I listened to it. It didn't occur to me until others started pointing it out. But I've always felt a kinship with Off He Goes. The song means a lot to me.

But like I said before, I don't see any problem with someone saying "I like this because I can re-interpret it in a way that connects with me," like in the example I gave of people who feel a kinship with Alive even though their mother never attempted to have sex with them. But just like that doesn't make Alive stop being about incest, that doesn't make Off He Goes stop being narcissistic in its inception.

It's subjective. You are interpreting narcissism. There's nothing outwardly narcissistic.

Or to put it better, this:

digster wrote:It's one thing to think Alive is a self-affirming song when it's about incest, or to think Better Man is a love song when that's clearly not the case. But I don't see anyone here misinterpreting the story being told in Off He Goes. They're just viewing it through the parallel situations in their own life rather than limiting it to solely being about Eddie Vedder the person.

durdencommatyler wrote:I guess I just don't see how there's anything in the song that shows Ed having an excessive or erotic interest in himself or his personal appearance. It's a story about what it's like when friends fracture and how "the surrounding bullshit" affects perceptions on both sides. It's a universal theme, and hardly narcissistic in this case. At least, to me.

Picking and choosing definitions is fun. It can also mean "Having an undue fascination with oneself," which this song absolutely oozes to me.

Lament wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:I guess I just don't see how there's anything in the song that shows Ed having an excessive or erotic interest in himself or his personal appearance. It's a story about what it's like when friends fracture and how "the surrounding bullshit" affects perceptions on both sides. It's a universal theme, and hardly narcissistic in this case. At least, to me.

Picking and choosing definitions is fun. It can also mean "Having an undue fascination with oneself," which this song absolutely oozes to me.

What's the difference between having an excessive interest in oneself and having an undue fascination with oneself?

Lament wrote:

digster wrote:It's one thing to think Alive is a self-affirming song when it's about incest, or to think Better Man is a love song when that's clearly not the case. But I don't see anyone here misinterpreting the story being told in Off He Goes. They're just viewing it through the parallel situations in their own life rather than limiting it to Eddie Vedder the person.

And that's fine. But the song was written by Eddie Vedder the person about Eddie Vedder the person. You can repurpose it to be about yourself and relate to it, but that doesn't change the fact that in the context in which it was written, it's a pretty narcissistic tale.

I said they viewed through the situations in their life; I didn't say they felt that it was ABOUT those situations. That would be repurposing the song. I see what you're saying, but the way you're classifying this song as being narcissistic would apply to a vast amount of songs. Maybe I'm just automatically assigning a negative connotation to the term when there shouldn't be one.

durdencommatyler wrote:It's a story about what it's like when friends fracture and how "the surrounding bullshit" affects perceptions on both sides. It's a universal theme, and hardly narcissistic in this case. At least, to me.

But just a few posts earlier you suggested it was supposed to be read with the extraordinary circumstances he was going through (fame, Ticketmaster) in mind. That takes it out of the universal realm, does it not?

Lament wrote:

digster wrote:It's one thing to think Alive is a self-affirming song when it's about incest, or to think Better Man is a love song when that's clearly not the case. But I don't see anyone here misinterpreting the story being told in Off He Goes. They're just viewing it through the parallel situations in their own life rather than limiting it to Eddie Vedder the person.

And that's fine. But the song was written by Eddie Vedder the person about Eddie Vedder the person. You can repurpose it to be about yourself and relate to it, but that doesn't change the fact that in the context in which it was written, it's a pretty narcissistic tale.

Oh come on man, I don't think its meant to be taken that literally. Just because he said in an interview once "that its about me", I don't think I'm supposed to assume its a glorious ode to himself. He saved that for Given to Fly.