Red Mosquito

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

bada wrote:Han went from a guy who smuggled cargo for some unsavory characters, then made friends with Luke and fell for his sister. There was no great awakening for Han. Then things went south and he went back to moving cargo as opposed to....what should he have been doing? It seems odd to think a good plot point would feature a domesticated Han spouting the importance of the force and a good government for the people. Unless I missed the part where he was trafficking sex slaves I don't see how bad Han was...then was redeemed...then went horribly wrong again.

You guys are thinking about this in much more literal, plot-based terms than I am. I'm concerned with the subtext of his arc. The thematic significance of his growth, and how it's retroactively altered by TFA.

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

Mecca wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

Mecca wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

Strat wrote:My point is nothing in TFA undermines the character that was and is Han Solo.

And my point is that the starting point of where Solo is in TFA absolutely undermines the message of his arc in the OT. At the end of ROTJ, his arc says, "If you lower your wall of cynicism and let people in, you can find your home/happiness/love." At the end of TFA, his arc now says, "Oh, but then that home will get destroyed and you will be killed by the offspring of your newfound happiness."

so he found a home and let his walls down. He probably spends many happy years with Leia until his progeny, a direct result of his love with Leia, tears down the happiness that he thought he had found, so he regresses. Him and Leia agree they both went back to the only thing they were ever good at because they are dealing with the horribleness of their child being an instrument of what they have always been fighting against. That's a totally believable arc, imo.

Yes. That's what I said happened. Again, my problem has nothing to do with whether or not any of this is "believable."

your problem is that it shits all over his growth from the OT?

Right. It undermines the subtext of his arc.

Strat wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

bada wrote:Han went from a guy who smuggled cargo for some unsavory characters, then made friends with Luke and fell for his sister. There was no great awakening for Han. Then things went south and he went back to moving cargo as opposed to....what should he have been doing? It seems odd to think a good plot point would feature a domesticated Han spouting the importance of the force and a good government for the people. Unless I missed the part where he was trafficking sex slaves I don't see how bad Han was...then was redeemed...then went horribly wrong again.

You guys are thinking about this in much more literal, plot-based terms than I am. I'm concerned with the subtext of his arc. The thematic significance of his growth, and how it's retroactively altered by TFA.

None of us see nor can rellate to any of your points as to how his character in TFA undermines any of his growth in the OT. It adds to the character. What is actually undermined? I dont think his story arc was that extravagant of redemption. The guy can still be a hero and smuggler with a failed relationship.

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

bada wrote:Han went from a guy who smuggled cargo for some unsavory characters, then made friends with Luke and fell for his sister. There was no great awakening for Han. Then things went south and he went back to moving cargo as opposed to....what should he have been doing? It seems odd to think a good plot point would feature a domesticated Han spouting the importance of the force and a good government for the people. Unless I missed the part where he was trafficking sex slaves I don't see how bad Han was...then was redeemed...then went horribly wrong again.

You guys are thinking about this in much more literal, plot-based terms than I am. I'm concerned with the subtext of his arc. The thematic significance of his growth, and how it's retroactively altered by TFA.

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

stip wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

Strat wrote:Geezes christ. He is still a hero. He's all those things. I dont get how you can say he completely through away all of his growth? he ended up, once again, being a fucking hero.

His growth wasn't just becoming a hero. His growth was becoming less of a cynic, and, finally, finding a home.

And then his home was destroyed and he spends the end of his arc trying to help his son and his mentee return to and find their own homes. I think that wraps things up beautifully.

Yeah, except apparently his relationship with Leia was worthless. And he had no problem just putzing around the galaxy with Chewie for God-knows-how-long before this movie.

Ugh.

BurtReynolds wrote:McP and LV are right about this, you morons.

bada wrote:If you are saying Jedi should have been the end of Star Wars and any continuation ruined the fairy tale then that's fine but if you are going to continue with those characters where should Han be thematically?

bada wrote:If you are saying Jedi should have been the end of Star Wars and any continuation ruined the fairy tale then that's fine but if you are going to continue with those characters where should Han be thematically?

Strat wrote:I fucking hate myself for spending this much time on something so dumb.

LoathedVermin72 wrote:The fact that you guys find it so hard to believe that Han could actually, genuinely be happily in love and not want to keep smuggling for criminals probably exposes the fundamental clash in how we're viewing this.

LoathedVermin72 wrote:The fact that you guys find it so hard to believe that Han could actually, genuinely be happily in love and not want to keep smuggling for criminals probably exposes the fundamental clash in how we're viewing this.

Mecca wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:The fact that you guys find it so hard to believe that Han could actually, genuinely be happily in love and not want to keep smuggling for criminals probably exposes the fundamental clash in how we're viewing this.

I absolutely believe that.