Red Mosquito

E.H. Ruddock wrote:I don’t even care about production. I’m bitching about Ed’s shitty vocals. What do you have to say about that, KD!?

stip wrote:that’ll learn him!

stip wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:

digster wrote:

stip wrote: i mean i think i can. when we say we prefer a song live isnt that at least partially what we are doing?

It does, and I'm not saying a good song can't get captured poorly. My point is more in terms of judging how an album succeeds, that thinking about the production seems as important as judging any other decision the band makes in terms of how a song sounds. Whether or not the guitars sound like shit, for example, seems as important (or almost as important) as what the guitar player is actually playing, especially because presumably the musician and/or producer have put thought into both of those things.

I think you can absolutely separate composition from performance, and then composition/performance from production, and all combinations of these -- and all of these things (composition, performance, production) are in and of themselves multi-faceted (i.e. a song can have great lyrics but dull music, excellent singing but a lousy arrangement, great mixing but poor mastering). In the end, an album could conceivably hook (or lose) any given listener with any element of any of these things, rendering all other elements "overlookable," but it's always a matter of degree -- specifically, (a) the degree to which the music succeeds at what it does well, and (b) the degree to which the things it doesn't do well are able to get out of the way.

I have no issues with the concept of looking past production value. I've been doing it my whole life. I've listened to concert recordings made from the audience, tapes recorded by my friends' bands in their basements, lots of '80's shit with unpleasant drum effects, my fair share of lo-fi indie records and absolutely my share of overproduced, oversugared pop and rock music. In any of those situations, could there have been a situation where the mitigating factor was just mitigating enough to turn me off? Absolutely. I have no issues with audience tapes, but it's possible that any given taper may have just been too far back for the music to be audible. I have no problem with recordings made in a basement, but if you put your mic right next to your water heater, it's possible that the environmental elements might push an already tough-to-listen-to recording over the edge. I am confident that I could take anyone's favorite song, dump it into Audacity as a wave file, and make it unlistenable within seconds just by adding compression and limiting. I think everyone has limits for this stuff, whether they recognize it or not. It's just, again, all a matter of degree.

So far, Watt's production on the Dark Matter tracks plays a pretty aggressive tug of war -- even if I approach the songs with the mindset of disregarding the production to see through to the songwriting and performance, it is still there, nipping at my ears, pulling my attention back. To use Stip's spice analogy, trying to ignore Watt's production is not like trying to overlook a slightly off-kilter hint of something; it's like trying to taste subtleties in the meat when he's used 15x the amount of recommended sugar in the sauce. Now, people have different thresholds for sugar, and yes, to some extent you can look past the superficial "sound" of a record to hear through to other things in it, but on the other hand, music is sound -- that's all it is, everything you process about music is based on your hearing of it, and how your ears interpret the presentation of these other things that really only exist conceptually (performance, composition, etc.). Telling someone to ignore that is like telling someone to stop focusing on the taste of the food, but to pay attention to the ingredients in the recipe. It's conceptually possible, but disingenuous to experience.

i mean its all how you want to assemble your metaphor. you eat with your eyes first - maybe what we have broadly been calling the production is the presentation, but the compostion is the ingredients and the performance is how you cook them.
. Maybe the world tolerates more sugar in their diet than some folks here, but clearly people like what they are hearing. so either:

A: everyone but a subset of enlightened people physically cant hear how offensive this is
B: thie production is an important part of how some folks experience music, but not all (or even a majority)
C: maybe its not as bad as the hyperbolic posturing from some might lead you to believe
D: some people have the cilantro gene that makes it taste like soap, and some dont


again if this matters to you, and it is what you privelage in your listening experience, then how this is produced is a deal breaker. and thats real and true to your experience. But i would strongly push back against the production of the song being the foundation that either makes or legitimates everything that follows

tommy wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:I don’t even care about production. I’m bitching about Ed’s shitty vocals. What do you have to say about that, KD!?

What was the last album on which you enjoyed Ed's vocals?

mattyv1908 wrote:

stip wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:

digster wrote:

stip wrote: i mean i think i can. when we say we prefer a song live isnt that at least partially what we are doing?

It does, and I'm not saying a good song can't get captured poorly. My point is more in terms of judging how an album succeeds, that thinking about the production seems as important as judging any other decision the band makes in terms of how a song sounds. Whether or not the guitars sound like shit, for example, seems as important (or almost as important) as what the guitar player is actually playing, especially because presumably the musician and/or producer have put thought into both of those things.

I think you can absolutely separate composition from performance, and then composition/performance from production, and all combinations of these -- and all of these things (composition, performance, production) are in and of themselves multi-faceted (i.e. a song can have great lyrics but dull music, excellent singing but a lousy arrangement, great mixing but poor mastering). In the end, an album could conceivably hook (or lose) any given listener with any element of any of these things, rendering all other elements "overlookable," but it's always a matter of degree -- specifically, (a) the degree to which the music succeeds at what it does well, and (b) the degree to which the things it doesn't do well are able to get out of the way.

I have no issues with the concept of looking past production value. I've been doing it my whole life. I've listened to concert recordings made from the audience, tapes recorded by my friends' bands in their basements, lots of '80's shit with unpleasant drum effects, my fair share of lo-fi indie records and absolutely my share of overproduced, oversugared pop and rock music. In any of those situations, could there have been a situation where the mitigating factor was just mitigating enough to turn me off? Absolutely. I have no issues with audience tapes, but it's possible that any given taper may have just been too far back for the music to be audible. I have no problem with recordings made in a basement, but if you put your mic right next to your water heater, it's possible that the environmental elements might push an already tough-to-listen-to recording over the edge. I am confident that I could take anyone's favorite song, dump it into Audacity as a wave file, and make it unlistenable within seconds just by adding compression and limiting. I think everyone has limits for this stuff, whether they recognize it or not. It's just, again, all a matter of degree.

So far, Watt's production on the Dark Matter tracks plays a pretty aggressive tug of war -- even if I approach the songs with the mindset of disregarding the production to see through to the songwriting and performance, it is still there, nipping at my ears, pulling my attention back. To use Stip's spice analogy, trying to ignore Watt's production is not like trying to overlook a slightly off-kilter hint of something; it's like trying to taste subtleties in the meat when he's used 15x the amount of recommended sugar in the sauce. Now, people have different thresholds for sugar, and yes, to some extent you can look past the superficial "sound" of a record to hear through to other things in it, but on the other hand, music is sound -- that's all it is, everything you process about music is based on your hearing of it, and how your ears interpret the presentation of these other things that really only exist conceptually (performance, composition, etc.). Telling someone to ignore that is like telling someone to stop focusing on the taste of the food, but to pay attention to the ingredients in the recipe. It's conceptually possible, but disingenuous to experience.

i mean its all how you want to assemble your metaphor. you eat with your eyes first - maybe what we have broadly been calling the production is the presentation, but the compostion is the ingredients and the performance is how you cook them.
. Maybe the world tolerates more sugar in their diet than some folks here, but clearly people like what they are hearing. so either:

A: everyone but a subset of enlightened people physically cant hear how offensive this is
B: thie production is an important part of how some folks experience music, but not all (or even a majority)
C: maybe its not as bad as the hyperbolic posturing from some might lead you to believe
D: some people have the cilantro gene that makes it taste like soap, and some dont


again if this matters to you, and it is what you privelage in your listening experience, then how this is produced is a deal breaker. and thats real and true to your experience. But i would strongly push back against the production of the song being the foundation that either makes or legitimates everything that follows

First “#1 single” on charts that didn’t exist before for niche music is a pretty weak position to take. Dark Matter the song isn’t in any of Spotify’s top streaming lists since its release.

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

tommy wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:I don’t even care about production. I’m bitching about Ed’s shitty vocals. What do you have to say about that, KD!?

What was the last album on which you enjoyed Ed's vocals?

S/T.

Other than a few songs on each album, S/T is always the answer for studio Pearl Jam. I have, however, liked a few more songs in the live setting

tragabigzanda wrote:There are distorted guitars all over BS and LB:

GSMF
Got Some
The Fixer
Johnny Guitar
Amongst the Waves
Unthought Known
Supersonic
Force of Nature
Getaway
MYM
My Father’s Song
Sirens (guitar solo)
Lightning Dolt
Infallible
Swallowed Whole
LTRP
Yellow Moon (guitar solo)

RockPusher wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

tommy wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:I don’t even care about production. I’m bitching about Ed’s shitty vocals. What do you have to say about that, KD!?

What was the last album on which you enjoyed Ed's vocals?

S/T.

Other than a few songs on each album, S/T is always the answer for studio Pearl Jam. I have, however, liked a few more songs in the live setting

What you are looking for from Ed is a lot different from what I'm looking for, as I would put Gigaton's vocals well above S/T. Still, it's a pretty tight spectrum for me- Ed sounds like Ed. I like him less when he's screechy or whiny, but he hasn't been much of either of those things in a while. I also don't care for whatever the hell he's doing at the end of Running, but otherwise I'm good with what we've heard of the new stuff.

tragabigzanda wrote:

stip wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:There are distorted guitars all over BS and LB:

GSMF
Got Some
The Fixer
Johnny Guitar
Amongst the Waves
Unthought Known
Supersonic
Force of Nature
Getaway
MYM
My Father’s Song
Sirens (guitar solo)
Lightning Dolt
Infallible
Swallowed Whole
LTRP
Yellow Moon (guitar solo)

Insofar as they weren't entirely acoustic guitars then sure but the electric guitars in most of these songs is not what he's talking about.


Also, you spelled Lightning Bolt wrong. Or that was an incredible burn.

Sorry man but there’s no room for nuance here. Harmonic distortion is a measurable element and it’s clearly present on all those songs. The problem — if there is one — has more to do with his communication around what he’s hearing than it does my interpretation of the word “distortion.”

tragabigzanda wrote:

stip wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:There are distorted guitars all over BS and LB:

GSMF
Got Some
The Fixer
Johnny Guitar
Amongst the Waves
Unthought Known
Supersonic
Force of Nature
Getaway
MYM
My Father’s Song
Sirens (guitar solo)
Lightning Dolt
Infallible
Swallowed Whole
LTRP
Yellow Moon (guitar solo)

Insofar as they weren't entirely acoustic guitars then sure but the electric guitars in most of these songs is not what he's talking about.


Also, you spelled Lightning Bolt wrong. Or that was an incredible burn.

Sorry man but there’s no room for nuance here. Harmonic distortion is a measurable element and it’s clearly present on all those songs. The problem — if there is one — has more to do with his communication around what he’s hearing than it does my interpretation of the word “distortion.”

DDWJMUVW wrote: I would add (and this is specific to me but maybe some others see it this way too): the production on DM thus far isn’t offensive enough to overcome my enjoyment of the composition. Further, I guess I am so glad that the guitars are finally loud and aggressive again that it’s more important to me than the amount of undeniable sheen on these babies.

Really - think about this for a second: where were distorted guitars - like really distorted guitars. Loud and crunchy and very different than, say, the harmonic distortion on a song like Unthought Known. Like distortion that calls to mind a song like animal, or at least the louder parts of Life Wasted - on backspacer and bolt, aside form a few brief instances? Gig did better with WES, SBWM, Never, and TTLW, but still wasn’t what we got back on ten-vit.

tragabigzanda wrote:There are distorted guitars all over BS and LB:

GSMF
Got Some
The Fixer
Johnny Guitar
Amongst the Waves
Unthought Known
Supersonic
Force of Nature
Getaway
MYM
My Father’s Song
Sirens (guitar solo)
Lightning Dolt
Infallible
Swallowed Whole
LTRP
Yellow Moon (guitar solo)

VinylGuy wrote:we really need this album to leak right now so we can add new songs to this discussion.

pearl Jam, make it happen