Red Mosquito

I don't want to ruin the discussion about TD, but I just keep see this feminist hate rants on it that I really don't think are well-founded.

Dev wrote:it's possible The Wire is great, I haven't seen it. However, I did watch the last 3 seasons of Breaking Bad, and I could take it or leave it. The cinematography/pacing in TD is on another level, same with the story and characters when it comes right down to it.

TD can't hang with Heisenberg... and Dev, I'm afraid we can't be teammates after your little feminism tirade... For those who were betting on ME having the big meltdown of 2014... you may want to rethink.

Durden... 'Friends'... Really?!

durdencommatyler wrote:This criticism goes far beyond "people's need for attention." It's your inability to recognize that that shocks and bothers me.

No, I understand. I guess I just don't understand why you're so . You make it sound as if Dev told you he fucked your cat.

Dev wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:I reject the idea that "a fully-realized female character" and "appeal to everyone" are mutually exclusive.

sure, but it's all pretty relative, deciding which minorities must be included and which don't need to be, unless you try to represent everyone. Trying to represent everyone is a pretty pointless endeavour anyway, which probably in the majority of instances creates a watered down product. Everyone has idiosyncratic interests, and all products/tv shows appeal to specific demographics. There is nothing wrong with a particular demographic having a cathartic experience with a particular tv show, as long as that show doesn't explicitly promote some kind of discrimination. Discrimination against women is a real thing, but suggesting that anything that appeals primarily to men promotes that discrimination is a huge mistake.

I agree. My issue is that there shouldn't be a distinction. You seem to be implying that in order to appeal to men, the writers have to sacrifice strong female characters. And that's what I reject. You can have strong female characters and still appeal to your primary demographic. One of the tremendous shortcomings of the show is its inability to do so.

Take, for example, a show like Mad Men, which I'd argue is the best show in the history of TV. They are able to do both. And it's a misogynistic show by design, that is meant to appeal to a certain demographic, and still manages to have strong, engaging, and necessary female characters.

Other than a good sex scene, the women in TD are expendable. And while I don't think every story needs to pander to political correctness, nor does every story have an obligation to include everyone for the sake of it -- see my defence of the supposed "white washing" of GIRLS, for reference -- I do think "it's a story about dudes, therefore fuck them hoes" is a terrible defense and dangerous thinking.

The problem with TD is that it thinks it's women matter to the story and that the portrayal is appropriate to the plot. The problem is that the wrote those stories seeing nothing wrong with them.

durdencommatyler wrote:

Dev wrote:

Harry Lime wrote:

Dev wrote:

Captain Termite wrote:What was Rust and Marty's plan for when they got to the Childress house?

"Uhhh, I'll sort of drift away from you and look around while you knock on the door of the house of the pyscho we are looking for and ask to use his phone so you can call the real cops to come get him"

this

When you question this writer's plot point, then you question Rust Cohle's decision making. You just don't do that.

pretty sure I have considered lines of reasoning like this in the past. But, right now it makes absolutely no sense to me. Why, couldn't I enjoy parts of the writers work but dislike others?

You could and should. Orson is being unreasonable. Or funny. Sometimes it's hard to tell with him.

I'm always serious. This is the internet, after all.

Iholdthepain wrote:

Dev wrote:it's possible The Wire is great, I haven't seen it. However, I did watch the last 3 seasons of Breaking Bad, and I could take it or leave it. The cinematography/pacing in TD is on another level, same with the story and characters when it comes right down to it.

TD can't hang with Heisenberg... and Dev, I'm afraid we can't be teammates after your little feminism tirade... For those who were betting on ME having the big meltdown of 2014... you may want to rethink.

Durden... 'Friends'... Really?!

I'm gonna be honest with you, Iholdthepiss, I'm heartbroken.

Iholdthepain wrote:

Dev wrote:it's possible The Wire is great, I haven't seen it. However, I did watch the last 3 seasons of Breaking Bad, and I could take it or leave it. The cinematography/pacing in TD is on another level, same with the story and characters when it comes right down to it.

TD can't hang with Heisenberg... and Dev, I'm afraid we can't be teammates after your little feminism tirade... For those who were betting on ME having the big meltdown of 2014... you may want to rethink.

Durden... 'Friends'... Really?!

I put it in the "personal opinion" part of the post. Of course I don't expect others to agree with me. But, yeah, I think, in terms of revolutionary TV, in terms of changing/challenging your audience, and in terms of rewatchability, Friends is a better show. Especially that first season. It's easy to discard Friends because its a sitcom, but it changed TV. Nothing about TD is revolutionary. Most of it is pretty derivative, in fact.

Harry Lime wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:This criticism goes far beyond "people's need for attention." It's your inability to recognize that that shocks and bothers me.

No, I understand. I guess I just don't understand why you're so . You make it sound as if Dev told you he fucked your cat.

Cat fucking is less offensive to me. Maybe that's why.

durdencommatyler wrote:
The problem with TD is that it thinks it's women matter to the story and that the portrayal is appropriate to the plot. The problem is that the wrote those stories seeing nothing wrong with them.

There was already a discussion about this in earlier pages. The story is centered on two very flawed men and their point of view. And it even takes good shots at Marty's misogyny. Which some how went unnoticed by almost everyone.

Harry Lime wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:
The problem with TD is that it thinks it's women matter to the story and that the portrayal is appropriate to the plot. The problem is that the wrote those stories seeing nothing wrong with them.

There was already a discussion about this in earlier pages. The story is centered on two very flawed men and their point of view. And it even takes good shots at Marty's misogyny. Which some how went unnoticed by almost everyone.

How? Show me where those shots were taken. Because from a character perspective he actually seems better off for his physical and emotional abuse of the women in his life.

durdencommatyler wrote:

Dev wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:I reject the idea that "a fully-realized female character" and "appeal to everyone" are mutually exclusive.

sure, but it's all pretty relative, deciding which minorities must be included and which don't need to be, unless you try to represent everyone. Trying to represent everyone is a pretty pointless endeavour anyway, which probably in the majority of instances creates a watered down product. Everyone has idiosyncratic interests, and all products/tv shows appeal to specific demographics. There is nothing wrong with a particular demographic having a cathartic experience with a particular tv show, as long as that show doesn't explicitly promote some kind of discrimination. Discrimination against women is a real thing, but suggesting that anything that appeals primarily to men promotes that discrimination is a huge mistake.

I agree. My issue is that there shouldn't be a distinction. You seem to be implying that in order to appeal to men, the writers have to sacrifice strong female characters. And that's what I reject. You can have strong female characters and still appeal to your primary demographic. One of the tremendous shortcomings of the show is its inability to do so.

Take, for example, a show like Mad Men, which I'd argue is the best show in the history of TV. They are able to do both. And it's a misogynistic show by design, that is meant to appeal to a certain demographic, and still manages to have strong, engaging, and necessary female characters.

Other than a good sex scene, the women in TD are expendable. And while I don't think every story needs to pander to political correctness, nor does every story have an obligation to include everyone for the sake of it -- see my defence of the supposed "white washing" of GIRLS, for reference -- I do think "it's a story about dudes, therefore fuck them hoes" is a terrible defense and dangerous thinking.

The problem with TD is that it thinks it's women matter to the story and that the portrayal is appropriate to the plot. The problem is that the wrote those stories seeing nothing wrong with them.

yeah, I just think that the character of marty's wife is handled in an objective way, and that she is involved in the story as much as she needs to be. Forcing her into it more than the writer's naturally did would be dishonest. It would be like trying to cram an extra syllable into a perfect melody. Further, I think TD is pretty sympathetic to it's female characters, and that marty's story is a cautionary tale against disrespecting women…

Harry Lime wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:
The problem with TD is that it thinks it's women matter to the story and that the portrayal is appropriate to the plot. The problem is that the wrote those stories seeing nothing wrong with them.

There was already a discussion about this in earlier pages. The story is centered on two very flawed men and their point of view. And it even takes good shots at Marty's misogyny. Which some how went unnoticed by almost everyone.

agree

durdencommatyler wrote:

Harry Lime wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:
The problem with TD is that it thinks it's women matter to the story and that the portrayal is appropriate to the plot. The problem is that the wrote those stories seeing nothing wrong with them.

There was already a discussion about this in earlier pages. The story is centered on two very flawed men and their point of view. And it even takes good shots at Marty's misogyny. Which some how went unnoticed by almost everyone.

How? Show me where those shots were taken. Because from a character perspective he actually seems better off for his physical and emotional abuse of the women in his life.

dude, he ends up all alone, and the way he explains his life in the last episode is just pathetic. You can tell he seriously regrets everything.. When he references the detective's curse for example..

Marty doesn't learn anything. He isn't punished. The show does a pretty good job of absolving his and Cohl's behavior toward women, which is deplorable, especially since it's never mentioned in the show. It would be different if the point were "look at how awful these men are and the way they treat women is so disgusting." But this isn't Mad Men. This is a show were "men are men" and that means "how dare you make me fuck you" and "women are so stupid I don't even need to think about my text history."

Your defense of the show and your comment about what shows like Girls do to one's masculinity are further prove of the demographic at play and the general misunderstanding of the issue of the way women are portrayed on film/TV in general. Even if it was a joke, which I'm SURE it was, it's still in poor taste and begs a larger discussion about the way women (and men) are viewed in this society.

Look no further than Fight Club and the scene on the bus, "Is that what a real man looks like?"

Is it, Randy? Is it?

I thought TD had potential in the beginning, but it faltered big time after ep. 3, and the wrap-up was very half-ass.

I think there was nothing revolutionary or challenging about Friends... It was a chic-flic, IMo, and TD tried to be the exact opposite...

I'm sorry I broke your heart, Cheshie... You're not a great guy to have in my corner, anyway. I don't think you were truly committed to our relationship from the beginning, Dix.

Dev wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Harry Lime wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:
The problem with TD is that it thinks it's women matter to the story and that the portrayal is appropriate to the plot. The problem is that the wrote those stories seeing nothing wrong with them.

There was already a discussion about this in earlier pages. The story is centered on two very flawed men and their point of view. And it even takes good shots at Marty's misogyny. Which some how went unnoticed by almost everyone.

How? Show me where those shots were taken. Because from a character perspective he actually seems better off for his physical and emotional abuse of the women in his life.

dude, he ends up all alone, and the way he explains his life in the last episode is just pathetic. You can tell he seriously regrets everything.. When he references the detective's curse for example..

I didn't read it that way. He still has his bro and his life and a career. Maybe he has a gut and is pissed that his wife has money now (but even their relationship seems fine, all things considered). She's expected to forgive him and move on and be the bigger person. And she does. She fucks Cohl and it's her fault. Sucks to be Marty what with solving a big case, keeping his best friend even though he fucked his wife, and never having to deal with those kids anymore. Phew! He really got his.

Iholdthepain wrote:I thought TD had potential in the beginning, but it faltered big time after ep. 3, and the wrap-up was very half-ass.

I think there was nothing revolutionary or challenging about Friends... It was a chic-flic, IMo, and TD tried to be the exact opposite...

I'm sorry I broke your heart, Cheshie... You're not a great guy to have in my corner, anyway. I don't think you were truly committed to our relationship from the beginning, Dix.

Friends was literally the first major prime-time sitcom to deal with gay relationships and non-traditional family structures. Almost every single show since has been structured on it or Seinfeld (which was equally revolutionary but in different ways).

k, durden, if you think they got away with it you are just wrong. I guess they aren't explicitly punished, but marty definitely pays for it. the point is how fucking miserable he is. which they show when he is eating is t.v. dinner alone for example. his friendship with rust seems like the sole consolation prize for his entire existence.

Iholdthepain wrote:I thought TD had potential in the beginning, but it faltered big time after ep. 3, and the wrap-up was very half-ass.

I think there was nothing revolutionary or challenging about Friends... It was a chic-flic, IMo, and TD tried to be the exact opposite...

I'm sorry I broke your heart, Cheshie... You're not a great guy to have in my corner, anyway. I don't think you were truly committed to our relationship from the beginning, Dix.

I was the only one who really loved you

Maybe that was the intention. I concede that, but I didn't read it that way. And even if that is the point, so the worst part of losing your wife and her trust is that you have to nuke fucking frozen dinners for yourself? Really? That's the message?

The thing is, there's a way to focus on the two lead men, to have it be their story and their perspective, and still represent women fairly. TD didn't bother with that. Not did it, like Mad Men, make a point of discarding women in a natural way because that's the perspective of its characters. Instead the show chose to abuse women, and let the men off the hook. It chose to join the long line of programing that obliterates the female perspective and celebrates that obliteration.

It's still a fine show. There's a lot to like about TD. I really enjoyed watching it. But it's these issues that keep it from being the best show of all time, which is my only argument here. It's not. Because a show worthy of that distinction finds a way to overcome these issues rather than falling victim. All the other shows I mentioned managed to avoid these pitfalls.

TD did a lot right and is worthy of praise in many areas. But it's far from the best ever. Partly because of the issues we've been discussing. Partly because of its derivative nature. The show is LOST. The themes are the same, the ending is the same. People liked this one because it was on cable and they showed boobs in some episodes. Also, LOST ran for six years, TD was eight hours. But the best eight hours of LOST were better than the these eight hours of TD and the result was the same.