Red Mosquito

PHATJ wrote:

philpritchard wrote:
Most of those guys weren't putting anywhere near the same stress on their arms as pitchers are now.

How so?

For one, in today's game pitchers have thousands of competitive innings logged before they even get drafted.

philpritchard wrote:

MadTIGERmaN wrote:

philpritchard wrote:

numbers wrote:How has holding Strassburg out of the playoffs a few years ago benefited him since?

The problem with this kind of analysis is that it's literally impossible to know.

the sad part, is there is no scientific, or medical proof that the number of pitches raises the chances of an arm injury. There is plenty of pitchers from the past who through way more innings, way more pitches, and had long careers with virtually no problems. Spahn, Paige, Ryan, so on

owners are not so much concerned with the health / arm of the pitcher, as they are with the hit in the pocket book an injury to a pitcher brings, and the only way to insure a pitcher does not get hurt, is for a pitcher to not, pitch.

you could blow your arm out on pitch 10 or pitch 110 or pitch 210, in the first inning, 9th inning, or your 300 inning of the season. Soo i say let em pitch.

Most of those guys weren't putting anywhere near the same stress on their arms as pitchers are now. And I'm guessing teams have way more information to back up their decisions that we could even imagine.

Not to mention, it's very easy to point out the same 6 outliers as some sort of definitive proof. I'd be curious to see the "so ons.." Beyond the first 15 or so. If what if baseball has taught me anything it's that there were way more "2 great seasons" guys than I ever imagined

The first generation of pitchers that began pitching as a job in their formative years(rather than for fun) has hit the majors in the last five years. You have guys that have been pitching year round since they were 9 years old. For me, that's the biggest reason for the explosion of arm injuries.

PHATJ wrote:

philpritchard wrote:
Most of those guys weren't putting anywhere near the same stress on their arms as pitchers are now.

How so?

The velocity with which pitchers today throw blows previous generations out of the water (and no, picking guys like Ryan as counter-examples doesn't negate this fact). There are also a greater variety of pitches, all thrown much harder than in the past, that cause additional stress on the arm (think the rise of the splitter and, more recently, the cutter).

Fangraphs has pitch velocity data as far back as 2002. That year, the fastest average fastball among starters was AJ Burnett at 94.9 MPH and nine starters average 93+. This year, Nathan Eovaldi leads at 96.7 and 26 starters are averaging 93+. In 2002, Billy Wagner lead all relievers at 97.6 MPH and 12 relievers averaged 95+, with 27 at 93+. This year, Chapman is at 99.6, 33 are at 95+ and 70 are at 93+. The average fastball velocity for both starters and relievers has increased more than 2 MPH in that span. That's just 13 years and doesn't even consider what the numbers would look like an extra 20-30 years back into the 70's and 80's.

http://deadspin.com/tell-all-from-forme ... 1729197355

philpritchard wrote:

PHATJ wrote:

philpritchard wrote:
Most of those guys weren't putting anywhere near the same stress on their arms as pitchers are now.

How so?

The velocity with which pitchers today throw blows previous generations out of the water (and no, picking guys like Ryan as counter-examples doesn't negate this fact). There are also a greater variety of pitches, all thrown much harder than in the past, that cause additional stress on the arm (think the rise of the splitter and, more recently, the cutter).

Fangraphs has pitch velocity data as far back as 2002. That year, the fastest average fastball among starters was AJ Burnett at 94.9 MPH and nine starters average 93+. This year, Nathan Eovaldi leads at 96.7 and 26 starters are averaging 93+. In 2002, Billy Wagner lead all relievers at 97.6 MPH and 12 relievers averaged 95+, with 27 at 93+. This year, Chapman is at 99.6, 33 are at 95+ and 70 are at 93+. The average fastball velocity for both starters and relievers has increased more than 2 MPH in that span. That's just 13 years and doesn't even consider what the numbers would look like an extra 20-30 years back into the 70's and 80's.

philpritchard wrote:

http://deadspin.com/tell-all-from-forme ... 1729197355

I believe this.

numbers wrote:

philpritchard wrote:

http://deadspin.com/tell-all-from-forme ... 1729197355

I believe this.

Yeah, I don't see what's unreasonable about any of that.

philpritchard wrote:

PHATJ wrote:

philpritchard wrote:
Most of those guys weren't putting anywhere near the same stress on their arms as pitchers are now.

How so?

The velocity with which pitchers today throw blows previous generations out of the water (and no, picking guys like Ryan as counter-examples doesn't negate this fact). There are also a greater variety of pitches, all thrown much harder than in the past, that cause additional stress on the arm (think the rise of the splitter and, more recently, the cutter).

Fangraphs has pitch velocity data as far back as 2002. That year, the fastest average fastball among starters was AJ Burnett at 94.9 MPH and nine starters average 93+. This year, Nathan Eovaldi leads at 96.7 and 26 starters are averaging 93+. In 2002, Billy Wagner lead all relievers at 97.6 MPH and 12 relievers averaged 95+, with 27 at 93+. This year, Chapman is at 99.6, 33 are at 95+ and 70 are at 93+. The average fastball velocity for both starters and relievers has increased more than 2 MPH in that span. That's just 13 years and doesn't even consider what the numbers would look like an extra 20-30 years back into the 70's and 80's.

So.... teach the kids to dial it back 3 mph, and learn how to pitch, ya know, LOCATION! Zack Greinkes fastball is at the lowest of his career, and guess what, hes even more unhittable, because of his CHANGEUP.

These kids spend too much time in the weight room getting bigger and stronger to throw harder, which is leading to the arm injuries. Long Toss! Learn to pitch, hit your location! you can get big league hitters out with a 91 mph fastball.

A 91 mph fastball with great control doesn't get you a million dollar bonus, a 98 mph fastball does.

MadTIGERmaN wrote:

philpritchard wrote:

PHATJ wrote:

philpritchard wrote:
Most of those guys weren't putting anywhere near the same stress on their arms as pitchers are now.

How so?

The velocity with which pitchers today throw blows previous generations out of the water (and no, picking guys like Ryan as counter-examples doesn't negate this fact). There are also a greater variety of pitches, all thrown much harder than in the past, that cause additional stress on the arm (think the rise of the splitter and, more recently, the cutter).

Fangraphs has pitch velocity data as far back as 2002. That year, the fastest average fastball among starters was AJ Burnett at 94.9 MPH and nine starters average 93+. This year, Nathan Eovaldi leads at 96.7 and 26 starters are averaging 93+. In 2002, Billy Wagner lead all relievers at 97.6 MPH and 12 relievers averaged 95+, with 27 at 93+. This year, Chapman is at 99.6, 33 are at 95+ and 70 are at 93+. The average fastball velocity for both starters and relievers has increased more than 2 MPH in that span. That's just 13 years and doesn't even consider what the numbers would look like an extra 20-30 years back into the 70's and 80's.

So.... teach the kids to dial it back 3 mph, and learn how to pitch, ya know, LOCATION! Zack Greinkes fastball is at the lowest of his career, and guess what, hes even more unhittable, because of his CHANGEUP.

These kids spend too much time in the weight room getting bigger and stronger to throw harder, which is leading to the arm injuries. Long Toss! Learn to pitch, hit your location! you can get big league hitters out with a 91 mph fastball.

All else being equal (command, control, secondary pitches, etc.) higher velocity makes a pitcher better.

MadTIGERmaN wrote:

philpritchard wrote:

PHATJ wrote:

philpritchard wrote:
Most of those guys weren't putting anywhere near the same stress on their arms as pitchers are now.

How so?

The velocity with which pitchers today throw blows previous generations out of the water (and no, picking guys like Ryan as counter-examples doesn't negate this fact). There are also a greater variety of pitches, all thrown much harder than in the past, that cause additional stress on the arm (think the rise of the splitter and, more recently, the cutter).

Fangraphs has pitch velocity data as far back as 2002. That year, the fastest average fastball among starters was AJ Burnett at 94.9 MPH and nine starters average 93+. This year, Nathan Eovaldi leads at 96.7 and 26 starters are averaging 93+. In 2002, Billy Wagner lead all relievers at 97.6 MPH and 12 relievers averaged 95+, with 27 at 93+. This year, Chapman is at 99.6, 33 are at 95+ and 70 are at 93+. The average fastball velocity for both starters and relievers has increased more than 2 MPH in that span. That's just 13 years and doesn't even consider what the numbers would look like an extra 20-30 years back into the 70's and 80's.

So.... teach the kids to dial it back 3 mph, and learn how to pitch, ya know, LOCATION! Zack Greinkes fastball is at the lowest of his career, and guess what, hes even more unhittable, because of his CHANGEUP.

These kids spend too much time in the weight room getting bigger and stronger to throw harder, which is leading to the arm injuries. Long Toss! Learn to pitch, hit your location! you can get big league hitters out with a 91 mph fastball.

I remember reading an article about ZG when he got drafted. He told the Royals brass that he can hit 98 consistently if they want him to. Or he can be around 91-94 and be a Cy Young award winner. Well, he was onto something. As an 18 year old.

BigRedLedbetter wrote:

MadTIGERmaN wrote:

philpritchard wrote:

PHATJ wrote:

philpritchard wrote:
Most of those guys weren't putting anywhere near the same stress on their arms as pitchers are now.

How so?

The velocity with which pitchers today throw blows previous generations out of the water (and no, picking guys like Ryan as counter-examples doesn't negate this fact). There are also a greater variety of pitches, all thrown much harder than in the past, that cause additional stress on the arm (think the rise of the splitter and, more recently, the cutter).

Fangraphs has pitch velocity data as far back as 2002. That year, the fastest average fastball among starters was AJ Burnett at 94.9 MPH and nine starters average 93+. This year, Nathan Eovaldi leads at 96.7 and 26 starters are averaging 93+. In 2002, Billy Wagner lead all relievers at 97.6 MPH and 12 relievers averaged 95+, with 27 at 93+. This year, Chapman is at 99.6, 33 are at 95+ and 70 are at 93+. The average fastball velocity for both starters and relievers has increased more than 2 MPH in that span. That's just 13 years and doesn't even consider what the numbers would look like an extra 20-30 years back into the 70's and 80's.

So.... teach the kids to dial it back 3 mph, and learn how to pitch, ya know, LOCATION! Zack Greinkes fastball is at the lowest of his career, and guess what, hes even more unhittable, because of his CHANGEUP.

These kids spend too much time in the weight room getting bigger and stronger to throw harder, which is leading to the arm injuries. Long Toss! Learn to pitch, hit your location! you can get big league hitters out with a 91 mph fastball.

I remember reading an article about ZG when he got drafted. He told the Royals brass that he can hit 98 consistently if they want him to. Or he can be around 91-94 and be a Cy Young award winner. Well, he was onto something. As an 18 year old.

Im hearing more and more people compare Zack to Maddux...

and yeah yeah, chicks dig the long ball and 98 mph heater, but look what happens when these guys lose the control or, a few mph, they end up like Lincecum or Sabathia. I'll take Greinke over just about anyone right now and hes doing it at 91mph

MadTIGERmaN wrote:

BigRedLedbetter wrote:

MadTIGERmaN wrote:

philpritchard wrote:

PHATJ wrote:

philpritchard wrote:
Most of those guys weren't putting anywhere near the same stress on their arms as pitchers are now.

How so?

The velocity with which pitchers today throw blows previous generations out of the water (and no, picking guys like Ryan as counter-examples doesn't negate this fact). There are also a greater variety of pitches, all thrown much harder than in the past, that cause additional stress on the arm (think the rise of the splitter and, more recently, the cutter).

Fangraphs has pitch velocity data as far back as 2002. That year, the fastest average fastball among starters was AJ Burnett at 94.9 MPH and nine starters average 93+. This year, Nathan Eovaldi leads at 96.7 and 26 starters are averaging 93+. In 2002, Billy Wagner lead all relievers at 97.6 MPH and 12 relievers averaged 95+, with 27 at 93+. This year, Chapman is at 99.6, 33 are at 95+ and 70 are at 93+. The average fastball velocity for both starters and relievers has increased more than 2 MPH in that span. That's just 13 years and doesn't even consider what the numbers would look like an extra 20-30 years back into the 70's and 80's.

So.... teach the kids to dial it back 3 mph, and learn how to pitch, ya know, LOCATION! Zack Greinkes fastball is at the lowest of his career, and guess what, hes even more unhittable, because of his CHANGEUP.

These kids spend too much time in the weight room getting bigger and stronger to throw harder, which is leading to the arm injuries. Long Toss! Learn to pitch, hit your location! you can get big league hitters out with a 91 mph fastball.

I remember reading an article about ZG when he got drafted. He told the Royals brass that he can hit 98 consistently if they want him to. Or he can be around 91-94 and be a Cy Young award winner. Well, he was onto something. As an 18 year old.

Im hearing more and more people compare Zack to Maddux...

and yeah yeah, chicks dig the long ball and 98 mph heater, but look what happens when these guys lose the control or, a few mph, they end up like Lincecum or Sabathia. I'll take Greinke over just about anyone right now and hes doing it at 91mph

Exactly what it talked about in that article. It talked about guys who flamed out in the 80s and 90s. ZG talked about how he wanted to be like Maddux.

I really root for that kid.

There will always be examples of pitchers who succeed without throwing hard, but velocity is one of the best indicators of major league success. Just because some players pitch well without it doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

philpritchard wrote:Their will always be examples of pitchers who succeed without throwing hard, but velocity is one of the best indicators of major league success. Just because some players pitch well without it doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

never said it didnt matter, I'm saying instead of spending 20 hours a day in the weight room getting bigger and stronger, so you can throw 100, spend less time in the weight room, and more time learning to pitch, hit locations, and change speeds. That will protect an arm way more than just, shutting them down when they hit magical pitch counts/limits that have no scientific basis. You could blow out on pitch 1 or pitch 150

and the concern by the teams/owners is still more with the money invested.
the big dollar starters are protected WAY more than the flame throwing set up man.

verb_to_trust wrote:The cubs literally beat the shit out of the cards tonight, specifically Carlos Villanueva.

was there a brawl?

Guys, this is both really sad and really exciting: tonight is the first game of the biggest series the Jays have played in more than two decades.

How about them Mets? I almost feel bad for the Nats, not just getting swept but blown leads in all three games and some really horrible decisions by the manger. Reminds me so much of the 2007 and 2008 Mets teams, so uptight and panicky nothing going their way.

This Mets team the complete opposite, totally loose and just having fun, no matter what goes wrong they never give up. Can't say enough about Cespedes, what a pick up. Has there been another trade deadline pickup that's had such a positive impact on his new team?

Fuzzy_Dunlop wrote:How about them Mets? I almost feel bad for the Nats, not just getting swept but blown leads in all three games and some really horrible decisions by the manger. Reminds me so much of the 2007 and 2008 Mets teams, so uptight and panicky nothing going their way.

This Mets team the complete opposite, totally loose and just having fun, no matter what goes wrong they never give up. Can't say enough about Cespedes, what a pick up. Has there been another trade deadline pickup that's had such a positive impact on his new team?

So I'm a Braves fan, but I'm pulling for the Mets this year if only for David Wright, but definitely over the Nationals. Never has the media been so attached to a team as undeserving as the the Nationals.... but.. but.. on paper.

They are dumb. I don't even want to hear about injury, they can't get out of their own way.

And the Mets starters are awesome. Not real sure about that bullpen though.