cutuphalfdead wrote:ANH has probably suffered from time and genre saturation. When it was released the whole fantasy genre wasn't as big as it got over the decades following it. It's a pretty straight forward fantasy story, with the hero living in exile learning about his true parentage and embarking on a journey to defeat a dark power. The whole idea of that story probably seemed a lot fresher when ANH was first released, but at this point in time it's one of dozens.
That's the bones of the story, yeah, and looked at in such broad terms, yes, it is generic genre material. But the specificity beyond that basic blueprint is, as I just laid out, more sophisticated and remarkable than just that.
Disagree.
Unless we're talking about George's imagination: light sabers and the Force and blah blah.
LoathedVermin72 wrote:I wouldn't say ANH and ROTJ aren't well-crafted.
Yeah, maybe that's unfair. What's a better word... ? Because they are well made. A lot of talent and time and imagination and craftsmanship went into them. They are technical achievements and all of that. But they are generic in structure. And obvious. And sort of paint-by-numbers films.
But yeah they are well made or whatever.
I dunno, I would argue that ANH is the best-structured film of the whole series. Characters undergo meaningful arcs and change in big ways without it feeling forced or disingenuous. ANH is the only SW film to date that is self-contained. Massive amounts of world-building and character development happen without the film feeling overly expository. The interactions between Luke, Obi-Wan, C-3PO, R2-D2, Han, Leia, Chewie, and Vader are dynamic, compelling, and meaningful. The protagonist's motivations are tied to the antagonist(s) in a personal way. It ends with a triumphant, well-earned (in story and character terms) victory. And it never comes off as rushed; the atmosphere breathes comfortably. I think it's an exceptionally well-crafted piece of pop filmmaking.
Exactly. The structure is pure paint-by-numbers. It's Joseph Campbell, chapter by chapter. I agree it's well made, as I've said. It's just boring and obvious. Practical. Satisfying but comfortable. There's no real danger. Which is why we love it. It's exciting without being risky. It's your first assignment in Screenwriting 101. And it works.
Ehh, I think you're underselling how rare it is for such a structure to succeed at the level it does in ANH. I would agree that it's conventional, but not paint-by-numbers, boring, or obvious. Convention isn't inherently uninteresting.
cutuphalfdead wrote:ANH has probably suffered from time and genre saturation. When it was released the whole fantasy genre wasn't as big as it got over the decades following it. It's a pretty straight forward fantasy story, with the hero living in exile learning about his true parentage and embarking on a journey to defeat a dark power. The whole idea of that story probably seemed a lot fresher when ANH was first released, but at this point in time it's one of dozens.
That's the bones of the story, yeah, and looked at in such broad terms, yes, it is generic genre material. But the specificity beyond that basic blueprint is, as I just laid out, more sophisticated and remarkable than just that.
Disagree.
Unless we're talking about George's imagination: light sabers and the Force and blah blah.
That's absurd; ANH wouldn't be anything if it weren't for its characters and their relationships/dynamics. Laser swords and a mystical energy field aren't the reasons that movie took off to the degree it did. Without Obi-Wan selling it, The Force wouldn't be as compelling. Without Luke's journey, the adventure wouldn't be as romantic. Without Vader, the Empire wouldn't be as menacing. Without Han, Chewie, 3PO, Leia, or R2, the movie wouldn't be such a fun, memorable experience. They are the crux of everything.
cutuphalfdead wrote:ANH has probably suffered from time and genre saturation. When it was released the whole fantasy genre wasn't as big as it got over the decades following it. It's a pretty straight forward fantasy story, with the hero living in exile learning about his true parentage and embarking on a journey to defeat a dark power. The whole idea of that story probably seemed a lot fresher when ANH was first released, but at this point in time it's one of dozens.
That's the bones of the story, yeah, and looked at in such broad terms, yes, it is generic genre material. But the specificity beyond that basic blueprint is, as I just laid out, more sophisticated and remarkable than just that.
Disagree.
Unless we're talking about George's imagination: light sabers and the Force and blah blah.
That's absurd; ANH wouldn't be anything if it weren't for its characters and their relationships/dynamics. Laser swords and a mystical energy field aren't the reasons that movie took off to the degree it did. Without Obi-Wan selling it, The Force wouldn't be as compelling. Without Luke's journey, the adventure wouldn't be as romantic. Without Vader, the Empire wouldn't be as menacing. Without Han, Chewie, 3PO, Leia, or R2, the movie wouldn't be such a fun, memorable experience. They are the crux of everything.
And to this point, is exactly why the Prequels were such a failure. It didnt have those characters, or dynamics, that brought the story to life. i dont think the prequels shine any light on what is weak with the OT as they are so vastly different and executed in such a different manner.
LoathedVermin72 wrote:ANH is the only SW film to date that is self-contained. Massive amounts of world-building and character development happen without the film feeling overly expository.
There's a good amount of disagreement in the SW community as to whether Lucas had any intention to set up a franchise or a multi-film arc when Star Wars was in production; I'm in the camp of "probably not" (or, at least, he never imagined he'd get the chance), mostly because there are no little winks or hints that there's a "bigger story" here. Even if you take out the cliffhanger ending of Empire, it's got a much more delayed sense of satisfaction/closure (i.e., Yoda saying, 'There is another'). You don't need to watch or read anything besides the opening crawl to enjoy that movie.
cutuphalfdead wrote:ANH has probably suffered from time and genre saturation. When it was released the whole fantasy genre wasn't as big as it got over the decades following it. It's a pretty straight forward fantasy story, with the hero living in exile learning about his true parentage and embarking on a journey to defeat a dark power. The whole idea of that story probably seemed a lot fresher when ANH was first released, but at this point in time it's one of dozens.
That's the bones of the story, yeah, and looked at in such broad terms, yes, it is generic genre material. But the specificity beyond that basic blueprint is, as I just laid out, more sophisticated and remarkable than just that.
Disagree.
Unless we're talking about George's imagination: light sabers and the Force and blah blah.
That's absurd; ANH wouldn't be anything if it weren't for its characters and their relationships/dynamics. Laser swords and a mystical energy field aren't the reasons that movie took off to the degree it did. Without Obi-Wan selling it, The Force wouldn't be as compelling. Without Luke's journey, the adventure wouldn't be as romantic. Without Vader, the Empire wouldn't be as menacing. Without Han, Chewie, 3PO, Leia, or R2, the movie wouldn't be such a fun, memorable experience. They are the crux of everything.
And to this point, is exactly why the Prequels were such a failure. It didnt have those characters, or dynamics, that brought the story to life. i dont think the prequels shine any light on what is weak with the OT as they are so vastly different and executed in such a different manner.
Right. The only thing I can think of is people looking at the Ewoks and other "kid" stuff in ROTJ differently in retrospect after Jar-Jar and all the other prequel kiddiness. But that's kind of silly.
cutuphalfdead wrote:ANH has probably suffered from time and genre saturation. When it was released the whole fantasy genre wasn't as big as it got over the decades following it. It's a pretty straight forward fantasy story, with the hero living in exile learning about his true parentage and embarking on a journey to defeat a dark power. The whole idea of that story probably seemed a lot fresher when ANH was first released, but at this point in time it's one of dozens.
That's the bones of the story, yeah, and looked at in such broad terms, yes, it is generic genre material. But the specificity beyond that basic blueprint is, as I just laid out, more sophisticated and remarkable than just that.
Disagree.
Unless we're talking about George's imagination: light sabers and the Force and blah blah.
That's absurd; ANH wouldn't be anything if it weren't for its characters and their relationships/dynamics. Laser swords and a mystical energy field aren't the reasons that movie took off to the degree it did. Without Obi-Wan selling it, The Force wouldn't be as compelling. Without Luke's journey, the adventure wouldn't be as romantic. Without Vader, the Empire wouldn't be as menacing. Without Han, Chewie, 3PO, Leia, or R2, the movie wouldn't be such a fun, memorable experience. They are the crux of everything.
And to this point, is exactly why the Prequels were such a failure. It didnt have those characters, or dynamics, that brought the story to life. i dont think the prequels shine any light on what is weak with the OT as they are so vastly different and executed in such a different manner.
Right. The only thing I can think of is people looking at the Ewoks and other "kid" stuff in ROTJ differently in retrospect after Jar-Jar and all the other prequel kiddiness. But that's kind of silly.
durdencommatyler wrote:The prequels managed to highlight the things that were bad about the OT. Things people were willing to let go or overlook or maybe didn't even notice in the way the movies were plotted and written became ugly and obvious. People began to rewatch the OT through the lens of the PT. Those movies were so bad, they made the flaws in other movies obvious to those how had never seen or cared about them before.
pretty much. The power of those movies is really in what they awakened in people (no pun intended), as much if not more than their value as films. Though they're still on point in that regard, their legacy and impact transcends the filmmaking. And the prequels damaged the idea of star wars by showing that they are just movies, and could be bad movies, and made me reevaluate the OT as movies in a way I would not have done before.
LoathedVermin72 wrote:I wouldn't say ANH and ROTJ aren't well-crafted.
Yeah, maybe that's unfair. What's a better word... ? Because they are well made. A lot of talent and time and imagination and craftsmanship went into them. They are technical achievements and all of that. But they are generic in structure. And obvious. And sort of paint-by-numbers films.
But yeah they are well made or whatever.
I dunno, I would argue that ANH is the best-structured film of the whole series. Characters undergo meaningful arcs and change in big ways without it feeling forced or disingenuous. ANH is the only SW film to date that is self-contained. Massive amounts of world-building and character development happen without the film feeling overly expository. The interactions between Luke, Obi-Wan, C-3PO, R2-D2, Han, Leia, Chewie, and Vader are dynamic, compelling, and meaningful. The protagonist's motivations are tied to the antagonist(s) in a personal way. It ends with a triumphant, well-earned (in story and character terms) victory. And it never comes off as rushed; the atmosphere breathes comfortably. I think it's an exceptionally well-crafted piece of pop filmmaking.
Exactly. The structure is pure paint-by-numbers. It's Joseph Campbell, chapter by chapter. I agree it's well made, as I've said. It's just boring and obvious. Practical. Satisfying but comfortable. There's no real danger. Which is why we love it. It's exciting without being risky. It's your first assignment in Screenwriting 101. And it works.
Ehh, I think you're underselling how rare it is for such a structure to succeed at the level it does in ANH. I would agree that it's conventional, but not paint-by-numbers, boring, or obvious. Convention isn't inherently uninteresting.
I agree that convention isn't inherently uninteresting. ANH is plenty interesting. If it wasn't, it wouldn't have endeared and endured. But I think a large part of what makes it interesting is the characters, the mythology and the imagination of George Lucas.
cutuphalfdead wrote:ANH has probably suffered from time and genre saturation. When it was released the whole fantasy genre wasn't as big as it got over the decades following it. It's a pretty straight forward fantasy story, with the hero living in exile learning about his true parentage and embarking on a journey to defeat a dark power. The whole idea of that story probably seemed a lot fresher when ANH was first released, but at this point in time it's one of dozens.
That's the bones of the story, yeah, and looked at in such broad terms, yes, it is generic genre material. But the specificity beyond that basic blueprint is, as I just laid out, more sophisticated and remarkable than just that.
Disagree.
Unless we're talking about George's imagination: light sabers and the Force and blah blah.
That's absurd; ANH wouldn't be anything if it weren't for its characters and their relationships/dynamics. Laser swords and a mystical energy field aren't the reasons that movie took off to the degree it did. Without Obi-Wan selling it, The Force wouldn't be as compelling. Without Luke's journey, the adventure wouldn't be as romantic. Without Vader, the Empire wouldn't be as menacing. Without Han, Chewie, 3PO, Leia, or R2, the movie wouldn't be such a fun, memorable experience. They are the crux of everything.
something can be generic insofar as it following a standard template, but be well done enough on almost every level that it reminds you why something became a template in the first place.
cutuphalfdead wrote:ANH has probably suffered from time and genre saturation. When it was released the whole fantasy genre wasn't as big as it got over the decades following it. It's a pretty straight forward fantasy story, with the hero living in exile learning about his true parentage and embarking on a journey to defeat a dark power. The whole idea of that story probably seemed a lot fresher when ANH was first released, but at this point in time it's one of dozens.
That's the bones of the story, yeah, and looked at in such broad terms, yes, it is generic genre material. But the specificity beyond that basic blueprint is, as I just laid out, more sophisticated and remarkable than just that.
Disagree.
Unless we're talking about George's imagination: light sabers and the Force and blah blah.
That's absurd; ANH wouldn't be anything if it weren't for its characters and their relationships/dynamics. Laser swords and a mystical energy field aren't the reasons that movie took off to the degree it did. Without Obi-Wan selling it, The Force wouldn't be as compelling. Without Luke's journey, the adventure wouldn't be as romantic. Without Vader, the Empire wouldn't be as menacing. Without Han, Chewie, 3PO, Leia, or R2, the movie wouldn't be such a fun, memorable experience. They are the crux of everything.
Duh!
Remember when I said:
durdencommatyler wrote:This is my favorite part:
Strat wrote:“People don’t realize it’s actually a soap opera and it’s all about family problems–it’s not about spaceships.”
Oh really, George? People don't actually realize that? DO YOU FUCKING REALIZE THAT?
You gave us a cast of characters that we loved. We didn't give a shit about the spaceships, idiot. Is the Falcon, cool? Duh, but we don't give a shit about it if Han Solo isn't flying it. Are light sabers rad? You bet! But if it's not Luke Skywalker, Obi-Wan or Vader wielding them, who gives a good goddamn? Leia doesn't have a neat-o pod-racer nor does she swing a saber and you know what? WE LIKE HER AND GIVE A SHIT WHAT HAPPENS TO HER.
Wanna know how I know it's about characters and not spaceships, George? Because you went back to the well and made three NEW movies about characters nobody liked or gave a shit about and then you went and filled the goddamn things with... you guessed it, FUCKING SPACESHIPS!
You went back into the originals and ADDED SPACESHIPS.
It's YOU George Lucas who has no clue what your movies are about. Don't try to throw your fans under the bus or condescend when you clearly don't have any idea what you're talking about.
LoathedVermin72 wrote:I wouldn't say ANH and ROTJ aren't well-crafted.
Yeah, maybe that's unfair. What's a better word... ? Because they are well made. A lot of talent and time and imagination and craftsmanship went into them. They are technical achievements and all of that. But they are generic in structure. And obvious. And sort of paint-by-numbers films.
But yeah they are well made or whatever.
I dunno, I would argue that ANH is the best-structured film of the whole series. Characters undergo meaningful arcs and change in big ways without it feeling forced or disingenuous. ANH is the only SW film to date that is self-contained. Massive amounts of world-building and character development happen without the film feeling overly expository. The interactions between Luke, Obi-Wan, C-3PO, R2-D2, Han, Leia, Chewie, and Vader are dynamic, compelling, and meaningful. The protagonist's motivations are tied to the antagonist(s) in a personal way. It ends with a triumphant, well-earned (in story and character terms) victory. And it never comes off as rushed; the atmosphere breathes comfortably. I think it's an exceptionally well-crafted piece of pop filmmaking.
Exactly. The structure is pure paint-by-numbers. It's Joseph Campbell, chapter by chapter. I agree it's well made, as I've said. It's just boring and obvious. Practical. Satisfying but comfortable. There's no real danger. Which is why we love it. It's exciting without being risky. It's your first assignment in Screenwriting 101. And it works.
Ehh, I think you're underselling how rare it is for such a structure to succeed at the level it does in ANH. I would agree that it's conventional, but not paint-by-numbers, boring, or obvious. Convention isn't inherently uninteresting.
I agree that convention isn't inherently uninteresting. ANH is plenty interesting. If it wasn't, it wouldn't have endeared and endured. But I think a large part of what makes it interesting is the characters, the mythology and the imagination of George Lucas.
I think the characters being compelling is inexorably intertwined with the narrative structure of the movie, though.
durdencommatyler wrote:The prequels managed to highlight the things that were bad about the OT. Things people were willing to let go or overlook or maybe didn't even notice in the way the movies were plotted and written became ugly and obvious. People began to rewatch the OT through the lens of the PT. Those movies were so bad, they made the flaws in other movies obvious to those how had never seen or cared about them before.
pretty much. The power of those movies is really in what they awakened in people (no pun intended), as much if not more than their value as films. Though they're still on point in that regard, their legacy and impact transcends the filmmaking. And the prequels damaged the idea of star wars by showing that they are just movies, and could be bad movies, and made me reevaluate the OT as movies in a way I would not have done before.
We really could not be more diametrically opposed in the way we approach seemingly everything, stip.
cutuphalfdead wrote:ANH has probably suffered from time and genre saturation. When it was released the whole fantasy genre wasn't as big as it got over the decades following it. It's a pretty straight forward fantasy story, with the hero living in exile learning about his true parentage and embarking on a journey to defeat a dark power. The whole idea of that story probably seemed a lot fresher when ANH was first released, but at this point in time it's one of dozens.
That's the bones of the story, yeah, and looked at in such broad terms, yes, it is generic genre material. But the specificity beyond that basic blueprint is, as I just laid out, more sophisticated and remarkable than just that.
Disagree.
Unless we're talking about George's imagination: light sabers and the Force and blah blah.
That's absurd; ANH wouldn't be anything if it weren't for its characters and their relationships/dynamics. Laser swords and a mystical energy field aren't the reasons that movie took off to the degree it did. Without Obi-Wan selling it, The Force wouldn't be as compelling. Without Luke's journey, the adventure wouldn't be as romantic. Without Vader, the Empire wouldn't be as menacing. Without Han, Chewie, 3PO, Leia, or R2, the movie wouldn't be such a fun, memorable experience. They are the crux of everything.
something can be generic insofar as it following a standard template, but be well done enough on almost every level that it reminds you why something became a template in the first place.
durdencommatyler wrote:The prequels managed to highlight the things that were bad about the OT. Things people were willing to let go or overlook or maybe didn't even notice in the way the movies were plotted and written became ugly and obvious. People began to rewatch the OT through the lens of the PT. Those movies were so bad, they made the flaws in other movies obvious to those how had never seen or cared about them before.
pretty much. The power of those movies is really in what they awakened in people (no pun intended), as much if not more than their value as films. Though they're still on point in that regard, their legacy and impact transcends the filmmaking. And the prequels damaged the idea of star wars by showing that they are just movies, and could be bad movies, and made me reevaluate the OT as movies in a way I would not have done before.
LoathedVermin72 wrote:I wouldn't say ANH and ROTJ aren't well-crafted.
Yeah, maybe that's unfair. What's a better word... ? Because they are well made. A lot of talent and time and imagination and craftsmanship went into them. They are technical achievements and all of that. But they are generic in structure. And obvious. And sort of paint-by-numbers films.
But yeah they are well made or whatever.
I dunno, I would argue that ANH is the best-structured film of the whole series. Characters undergo meaningful arcs and change in big ways without it feeling forced or disingenuous. ANH is the only SW film to date that is self-contained. Massive amounts of world-building and character development happen without the film feeling overly expository. The interactions between Luke, Obi-Wan, C-3PO, R2-D2, Han, Leia, Chewie, and Vader are dynamic, compelling, and meaningful. The protagonist's motivations are tied to the antagonist(s) in a personal way. It ends with a triumphant, well-earned (in story and character terms) victory. And it never comes off as rushed; the atmosphere breathes comfortably. I think it's an exceptionally well-crafted piece of pop filmmaking.
cutuphalfdead wrote:ANH has probably suffered from time and genre saturation. When it was released the whole fantasy genre wasn't as big as it got over the decades following it. It's a pretty straight forward fantasy story, with the hero living in exile learning about his true parentage and embarking on a journey to defeat a dark power. The whole idea of that story probably seemed a lot fresher when ANH was first released, but at this point in time it's one of dozens.
That's the bones of the story, yeah, and looked at in such broad terms, yes, it is generic genre material. But the specificity beyond that basic blueprint is, as I just laid out, more sophisticated and remarkable than just that.
Disagree.
Unless we're talking about George's imagination: light sabers and the Force and blah blah.
That's absurd; ANH wouldn't be anything if it weren't for its characters and their relationships/dynamics. Laser swords and a mystical energy field aren't the reasons that movie took off to the degree it did. Without Obi-Wan selling it, The Force wouldn't be as compelling. Without Luke's journey, the adventure wouldn't be as romantic. Without Vader, the Empire wouldn't be as menacing. Without Han, Chewie, 3PO, Leia, or R2, the movie wouldn't be such a fun, memorable experience. They are the crux of everything.
And to this point, is exactly why the Prequels were such a failure. It didnt have those characters, or dynamics, that brought the story to life. i dont think the prequels shine any light on what is weak with the OT as they are so vastly different and executed in such a different manner.
Right. The only thing I can think of is people looking at the Ewoks and other "kid" stuff in ROTJ differently in retrospect after Jar-Jar and all the other prequel kiddiness. But that's kind of silly.
Also Ewoks rule.
Some dialogue is hokey. Some acting is clunky. The special effects start to feel a bit more dates just because you can't help (or I can't) but look for criticisms. The prequels turned these into films, as opposed to something that transcended it.
That's why the use of OT sound effects and designs is so important, even if you tell new stories with them. They evoke and update the magic that the OT unlocked, and make it possible for something to be transcendent and not just a film.
I love the LOTR movies, and I like them more than Star Wars. I am more of a fantasy than a sci-fi guy. But there is nothing that can call to mind the feeling I got from star wars, and I'm not sure there ever will be. And the closer this new story cleaves to the feel and iconography of the OT the more likely it is to resurrect that feeling and help the movies that follow become something more than movies.
