Red Mosquito

Which Friend was gay? I guess I never watched it too much, but what I did see was typical of the sitcom of the time... Basically the opposite of your argument... Those sitcoms went out of their way to make men look ridiculously stupid, shallow, and immature beyond belief! Raymond, Tool Time, and yes, even Seinfeld, among many others... to the point that across our great country, wives and girlfriends emulated it relentlessly.

Back on topic, though... Season 1 of TD needed more character development, more background on the main plot line, and at least 2 hours for that finale... It all just seemed out of sync from the first few episodes... They had to rush the story through because Wooderson wasn't coming back, I guess. It won't stand the test of time...

To relate it in terms RMers will understand... It's HBO's 'Pendulum'... Seemed so great and promising, but alas, it's merely smoke and mirrors.

durdencommatyler wrote:

Harry Lime wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:
The problem with TD is that it thinks it's women matter to the story and that the portrayal is appropriate to the plot. The problem is that the wrote those stories seeing nothing wrong with them.

There was already a discussion about this in earlier pages. The story is centered on two very flawed men and their point of view. And it even takes good shots at Marty's misogyny. Which some how went unnoticed by almost everyone.

How? Show me where those shots were taken. Because from a character perspective he actually seems better off for his physical and emotional abuse of the women in his life.

This is just off memory. Some of them subtle, some of them not. More than anything it highlights Marty's flaws. And any reasonable male watching the program can see that

1. At the trailer park bunny ranch. One of the prostitute's tells Marty off: "...then you realize that you don't own it (a woman) like you thought you did." And he was silenced after that.

2. At the dinner table with his family. He gripes about his daughter being a female cheerleader in 8th grade. His wife then tells him that there are 8th grade football players, so why not? Subtle, but it hints towards his perceived mastery over the women in his life, which is ironic, because he claims to be fighting that same kind of abuse. And none of that goes unnoticed by the writer. And that's why it's good writing.

3. He's better off physically & emotionally? Uh, did you see how much of a life had near the end? Failed online relationships & T.V. dinners. He's not a proud man. And no reasonable male watching the show wants to be Marty Hart at that point. And what got him there? All that lying & cheating in the earlier episodes. So even then he's not an enviable man.

And what about his realization in the end in his hospital bed, when he sees his wife & daughters, when he breaks down crying? Like Chole, it took a traumatic awakening to finally get out of one's "flat circle". For Marty, it was finally realizing all that he had lost with his family.

Iholdthepain wrote:Which Friend was gay? I guess I never watched it too much, but what I did see was typical of the sitcom of the time... Basically the opposite of your argument... Those sitcoms went out of their way to make men look ridiculously stupid, shallow, and immature beyond belief! Raymond, Tool Time, and yes, even Seinfeld, among many others... to the point that across our great country, wives and girlfriends emulated it relentlessly.

What?

No, seriously, watch the show. It's impact is lessened now -- 10 years later -- but try to watch season one and understand that nothing like that had been on on primetime cable TV before.

Marty ends up sad and alone. He sits on his couch eating TV dinners, browsing online dating sites where he says he hasn't had much luck. The way he repeatedly treated his wife came back to bite him. It took him being "heroic" and getting put in the hospital to get his exwife and kids to come see him and actually be happy to see him. He is definitely punished, IMO.

Harry Lime wrote:1. At the trailer park bunny ranch. One of the prostitute's tells Marty off: "...then you realize that you don't own it (a woman) like you thought you did." And he was silenced after that.

And then he even gets to fuck that girl later!

Harry Lime wrote:2. At the dinner table with his family. He gripes about his daughter being a female cheerleader in 8th grade. His wife then tells him that there are 8th grade football players, so why not? Subtle, but it hints towards his perceived mastery over the women in his life, which is ironic, because he claims to be fighting that same kind of abuse. And none of that goes unnoticed by the writer. And that's why it's good writing.

And nothing ever comes of it. It's actually pretty trite writing.

Harry Lime wrote:3. He's better off physically & emotionally? Uh, did you see how much of a life had near the end? Failed online relationships & T.V. dinners. He's not a proud man. And no reasonable male watching the show wants to be Marty Hart at that point. And what got him there? All that lying & cheating in the earlier episodes. So even then he's not an enviable man.

He isn't better off, but he isn't worse either. That's my point.

And by the end of the series we're meant to relate to Marty, we're supposed to feel sympathy for him because his "bitch" wife has a house an money and manages a decent relationship with her daughters that Marty never could. We're supposed to see her achievement as a slight against our hero.

Harry Lime wrote:And what about his realization in the end in his hospital bed, when he sees his wife & daughters, when he breaks down crying? Like Chole, it took a traumatic awakening to finally get out of one's "flat circle". For Marty, it was finally realizing all that he had lost with his family.

Sure. Maybe that's what they were going for. And if so, kudos to them. But it's too little too late and it's hallow. Mostly because of the writing and the fact that, at the end, we're supposed to care more about Cohl finding God than we are about Marty realizing his behavior has cost him so much.

Mecca wrote:Marty ends up sad and alone. He sits on his couch eating TV dinners, browsing online dating sites where he says he hasn't had much luck. The way he repeatedly treated his wife came back to bite him. It took him being "heroic" and getting put in the hospital to get his exwife and kids to come see him and actually be happy to see him. He is definitely punished, IMO.

But we also don't get to see the effect. There's no reason to think that Marty doesn't go out and fuck some young woman because he's a viral, attractive (even with his new gut), attractive man, on top of his game.

And even with the subtle clues (which I agree are there) that hint at what we're talking about, it doesn't excuse the complete lack of a female perspective. No it isn't necessary, but it is lacking. And it's one thing that keeps it from being the best show ever. Which was always my point.

Joey, I don't think you can see the forest for the trees.

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:Marty ends up sad and alone. He sits on his couch eating TV dinners, browsing online dating sites where he says he hasn't had much luck. The way he repeatedly treated his wife came back to bite him. It took him being "heroic" and getting put in the hospital to get his exwife and kids to come see him and actually be happy to see him. He is definitely punished, IMO.

But we also don't get to see the effect. There's no reason to think that Marty doesn't go out and fuck some young woman because he's a viral, attractive (even with his new gut), attractive man, on top of his game.

if he was doing that, the show wouldn't make a point to have him tell Rust that he's basically up to nothing and to actually show him and his solitary life.

Mecca wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:Marty ends up sad and alone. He sits on his couch eating TV dinners, browsing online dating sites where he says he hasn't had much luck. The way he repeatedly treated his wife came back to bite him. It took him being "heroic" and getting put in the hospital to get his exwife and kids to come see him and actually be happy to see him. He is definitely punished, IMO.

But we also don't get to see the effect. There's no reason to think that Marty doesn't go out and fuck some young woman because he's a viral, attractive (even with his new gut), attractive man, on top of his game.

if he was doing that, the show wouldn't make a point to have him tell Rust that he's basically up to nothing and to actually show him and his solitary life.

Would the show also give him a deus ex machina and have him solve the case by chance and save Cohl's life?

Harry Lime wrote:Joey, I don't think you can see the forest for the trees.

Dynamite drop in, Monty.

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:Marty ends up sad and alone. He sits on his couch eating TV dinners, browsing online dating sites where he says he hasn't had much luck. The way he repeatedly treated his wife came back to bite him. It took him being "heroic" and getting put in the hospital to get his exwife and kids to come see him and actually be happy to see him. He is definitely punished, IMO.

But we also don't get to see the effect. There's no reason to think that Marty doesn't go out and fuck some young woman because he's a viral, attractive (even with his new gut), attractive man, on top of his game.

if he was doing that, the show wouldn't make a point to have him tell Rust that he's basically up to nothing and to actually show him and his solitary life.

Would the show also give him a deus ex machina and have him solve the case by chance and save Cohl's life?

well obviously that was because he cheated on and alienated his wife that he was allowed to do that.

Mecca wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:Marty ends up sad and alone. He sits on his couch eating TV dinners, browsing online dating sites where he says he hasn't had much luck. The way he repeatedly treated his wife came back to bite him. It took him being "heroic" and getting put in the hospital to get his exwife and kids to come see him and actually be happy to see him. He is definitely punished, IMO.

But we also don't get to see the effect. There's no reason to think that Marty doesn't go out and fuck some young woman because he's a viral, attractive (even with his new gut), attractive man, on top of his game.

if he was doing that, the show wouldn't make a point to have him tell Rust that he's basically up to nothing and to actually show him and his solitary life.

Would the show also give him a deus ex machina and have him solve the case by chance and save Cohl's life?

well obviously that was because he cheated on and alienated his wife that he was allowed to do that.

Because that's the point I was making. Good work, Christopher. You're a veritable Marty! Or Harry Lime. Or whatever. You're a True Detective and deserve to see some boobs.

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:Marty ends up sad and alone. He sits on his couch eating TV dinners, browsing online dating sites where he says he hasn't had much luck. The way he repeatedly treated his wife came back to bite him. It took him being "heroic" and getting put in the hospital to get his exwife and kids to come see him and actually be happy to see him. He is definitely punished, IMO.

But we also don't get to see the effect. There's no reason to think that Marty doesn't go out and fuck some young woman because he's a viral, attractive (even with his new gut), attractive man, on top of his game.

if he was doing that, the show wouldn't make a point to have him tell Rust that he's basically up to nothing and to actually show him and his solitary life.

Would the show also give him a deus ex machina and have him solve the case by chance and save Cohl's life?

well obviously that was because he cheated on and alienated his wife that he was allowed to do that.

Because that's the point I was making. Good work, Christopher.

obviously you weren't, but what you say had nothing to do with what i said

Mecca wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:Marty ends up sad and alone. He sits on his couch eating TV dinners, browsing online dating sites where he says he hasn't had much luck. The way he repeatedly treated his wife came back to bite him. It took him being "heroic" and getting put in the hospital to get his exwife and kids to come see him and actually be happy to see him. He is definitely punished, IMO.

But we also don't get to see the effect. There's no reason to think that Marty doesn't go out and fuck some young woman because he's a viral, attractive (even with his new gut), attractive man, on top of his game.

if he was doing that, the show wouldn't make a point to have him tell Rust that he's basically up to nothing and to actually show him and his solitary life.

Would the show also give him a deus ex machina and have him solve the case by chance and save Cohl's life?

well obviously that was because he cheated on and alienated his wife that he was allowed to do that.

Because that's the point I was making. Good work, Christopher.

obviously you weren't, but what you say has nothing to do with what i said

Okay. Then why comment?

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:Marty ends up sad and alone. He sits on his couch eating TV dinners, browsing online dating sites where he says he hasn't had much luck. The way he repeatedly treated his wife came back to bite him. It took him being "heroic" and getting put in the hospital to get his exwife and kids to come see him and actually be happy to see him. He is definitely punished, IMO.

But we also don't get to see the effect. There's no reason to think that Marty doesn't go out and fuck some young woman because he's a viral, attractive (even with his new gut), attractive man, on top of his game.

if he was doing that, the show wouldn't make a point to have him tell Rust that he's basically up to nothing and to actually show him and his solitary life.

Would the show also give him a deus ex machina and have him solve the case by chance and save Cohl's life?

well obviously that was because he cheated on and alienated his wife that he was allowed to do that.

Because that's the point I was making. Good work, Christopher.

obviously you weren't, but what you say has nothing to do with what i said

Okay. Then why comment?

because I'm sarcastic.

deus ex machina has nothing to do with the format the show had previously established about storytelling/truth. Marty doesn't say I am a lonely loser, but the shots obviously show a beaten man. This goes back to the established storytelling method of the shots showing the reality while the narration could be entirely false.

durdencommatyler wrote:

Harry Lime wrote:Joey, I don't think you can see the forest for the trees.

Dynamite drop in, Monty.

No, I'm serious. This show is littered with major cause & effects, and it all adds up.

FYI, I had more connection with Cohle than I did Marty.

Mecca wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:Marty ends up sad and alone. He sits on his couch eating TV dinners, browsing online dating sites where he says he hasn't had much luck. The way he repeatedly treated his wife came back to bite him. It took him being "heroic" and getting put in the hospital to get his exwife and kids to come see him and actually be happy to see him. He is definitely punished, IMO.

But we also don't get to see the effect. There's no reason to think that Marty doesn't go out and fuck some young woman because he's a viral, attractive (even with his new gut), attractive man, on top of his game.

if he was doing that, the show wouldn't make a point to have him tell Rust that he's basically up to nothing and to actually show him and his solitary life.

Would the show also give him a deus ex machina and have him solve the case by chance and save Cohl's life?

well obviously that was because he cheated on and alienated his wife that he was allowed to do that.

Because that's the point I was making. Good work, Christopher.

obviously you weren't, but what you say has nothing to do with what i said

Okay. Then why comment?

because I'm sarcastic.

deus ex machina has nothing to do with the format the show had previously established about storytelling/truth. Marty doesn't say I am a lonely loser, but the shots obviously show a beaten man. This goes back to the established storytelling method of the shots showing the reality while the narration could be entirely false.

But deus ex machina ended the show; brought about the resolution. To ignore it as "nothing to do with the format" is a mistake. Because it was a part of the format, in the end. And it's another reason why the show isn't the best on TV and further support of the shaking writing throughout.

And the narrative argument doesn't hold water because we've caught up to the narrative at that point. The unreliable narration doesn't apply after a certain point.

Harry Lime wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Harry Lime wrote:Joey, I don't think you can see the forest for the trees.

Dynamite drop in, Monty.

No, I'm serious. This show is littered with major cause & effects, and it all adds up.

FYI, I had more connection with Cohle than I did Marty.

Of course it is. It's one of the show's biggest strengths. But that has nothing to do with the "feminist" argument.

And Cohle's just as shitty as Marty. I connect more with Cohle too, because I'm a nihilist. But that doesn't mean I have the luxury of overlooking the show's shortcomings. Because there are more than a few.

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Mecca wrote:Marty ends up sad and alone. He sits on his couch eating TV dinners, browsing online dating sites where he says he hasn't had much luck. The way he repeatedly treated his wife came back to bite him. It took him being "heroic" and getting put in the hospital to get his exwife and kids to come see him and actually be happy to see him. He is definitely punished, IMO.

But we also don't get to see the effect. There's no reason to think that Marty doesn't go out and fuck some young woman because he's a viral, attractive (even with his new gut), attractive man, on top of his game.

if he was doing that, the show wouldn't make a point to have him tell Rust that he's basically up to nothing and to actually show him and his solitary life.

Would the show also give him a deus ex machina and have him solve the case by chance and save Cohl's life?

well obviously that was because he cheated on and alienated his wife that he was allowed to do that.

Because that's the point I was making. Good work, Christopher.

obviously you weren't, but what you say has nothing to do with what i said

Okay. Then why comment?

because I'm sarcastic.

deus ex machina has nothing to do with the format the show had previously established about storytelling/truth. Marty doesn't say I am a lonely loser, but the shots obviously show a beaten man. This goes back to the established storytelling method of the shots showing the reality while the narration could be entirely false.

But deus ex machina ended the show; brought about the resolution. To ignore it but as "nothing to do with the format" is a mistake. Because it was a part of the format, in the end. And it's another reason why the show isn't the best on TV and further support of the shaking writing throughout.

And the narrative argument doesn't hold water because we've caught up to the narrative at that point. The unreliable narration doesn't apply after a certain point.

I feel like you are just being contrarian at this point. I didn't say that deus ex had nothing to do with the overall format, just in regards to the argument I was making about TRUTH. The narrative argument does too hold water for the argument I am making right now about Marty being punished for his actions. It was a flashback. The truth being Marty suffered. You said he doesn't answer for his treatment of his wife. I just showed you an example of how he did. You challenged that he could be out doing other things, except the show made a point of showing NOT doing those things. THAT is the argument I am making and your arguments against that haven't challenged what I have presented, hence my snippy remark previously.