Red Mosquito

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http://forums.theskyiscrape.com/viewtop ... 4#p1045474

tragabigzanda wrote:Ok, so I just ran both the S/T Spotify master and the 2017 BOB mix through the Dynamic Range app, and this is what I got:

Spoiler: show

Spotify Master

DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR7 -0.74 dB -8.73 dB 01 Life Wasted.wav
DR7 -0.76 dB -8.92 dB 02 World Wide Suicide.wav
DR6 -0.58 dB -7.67 dB 03 Comatose.wav
DR7 -0.80 dB -9.52 dB 04 Severed Hand.wav
DR7 -0.80 dB -8.61 dB 05 Marker In The Sand.wav
DR7 -1.08 dB -9.67 dB 06 Parachutes.wav
DR8 -1.08 dB -9.59 dB 07 Unemployable.wav
DR6 -0.82 dB -8.32 dB 08 Big Wave.wav
DR7 -0.86 dB -9.94 dB 09 Gone.wav
DR11 -2.34 dB -16.47 dB 10 Wasted Reprise.wav
DR7 -0.50 dB -9.16 dB 11 Army Reserve.wav
DR7 -0.70 dB -9.07 dB 12 Come Back.wav
DR7 -0.32 dB -11.40 dB 13 Inside Job.wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 13
Official DR value: DR7

#############

2017 Remix

DR Peak RMS Filename
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR5 over -5.54 dB 1-01 Life Wasted (2017 Mix).wav
DR5 over -6.44 dB 1-02 World Wide Suicide (2017 Mix).wav
DR5 over -6.02 dB 1-03 Comatose (2017 Mix).wav
DR5 over -6.27 dB 1-04 Severed Hand (2017 Mix).wav
DR5 over -5.92 dB 1-05 Marker In the Sand (2017 Mix).wav
DR6 over -7.26 dB 1-06 Parachutes (2017 Mix).wav
DR5 over -6.01 dB 1-07 Unemployable (2017 Mix).wav
DR5 over -5.59 dB 1-08 Big Wave (2017 Mix).wav
DR5 over -6.86 dB 1-09 Gone (2017 Mix).wav
DR11 -0.06 dB -13.09 dB 1-10 Wasted Reprise (2017 Mix).wav
DR6 over -6.93 dB 1-11 Army Reserve (2017 Mix).wav
DR5 over -5.80 dB 1-12 Come Back (2017 Mix).wav
DR5 over -8.35 dB 1-13 Inside Job (2017 Mix).wav
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of files: 13
Official DR value: DR5

TL;DR: the Spotify remaster has a dynamic range of 7, while the 2017 remix has a dynamic range of 5. The original CD version had a range of 6, so the 2017 remix is more compressed than the original version; and the Spotify remaster has more dynamics/less compression.

bune wrote:I'm going to have to find that thread because it was a lot of discovery and it happened by accident. I even emailed HDtracks with the waveform asking why it was brickwalled and they said so? which was rough.

I've had a lot of interactions with HDTracks since 2011, and, that just doesn't sound like a typical response from them. Maybe you caught them on a bad day, but, the customary response they usually provide to an e-mail like that would be something akin to, "We offer the albums exactly as they are provided to us by the labels. We are in constant communication with our partners..." blah blah yadda yadda.

In any case, don't want to derail this topic too much, as I have with a few others over the past week. Feel free to message me if/when you find that thread and want to suss this out a bit more.

Edit: That was quick. Let's bounce this to PM. Boss is coming to my place any minute now. Let me read what you've posted and I'll get back w you a bit later, OK? I see that was posted by tragabigzanda. I'd greatly appreciate it if they'd care to jump in w/ any further insight.

Great avatar, btw!

oneway23 wrote:

bune wrote:I'm going to have to find that thread because it was a lot of discovery and it happened by accident. I even emailed HDtracks with the waveform asking why it was brickwalled and they said so? which was rough.

I've had a lot of interactions with HDTracks since 2011, and, that just doesn't sound like a typical response from them. Maybe you caught them on a bad day, but, the customary response they usually provide to an e-mail like that would be something akin to, "We offer the albums exactly as they are provided to us by the labels. We are in constant communication with our partners..." blah blah yadda yadda.

In any case, don't want to derail this topic too much, as I have with a few others over the past week. Feel free to message me if/when you find that thread and want to suss this out a bit more.

Edit: That was quick. Let's bounce this to PM. Boss is coming to my place any minute now. Let me read what you've posted and I'll get back w you a bit later, OK? I see that was posted by tragabigzanda. I'd greatly appreciate it if they'd care to jump in w/ any further insight.

Great avatar, btw!

no no, that's the exact response I got (you can see it a little further down that thread) I just condensed it into "so?" because that's how it translates to me. I mean, they have an entire page about how they test for quality but then they turn around and sell whatever because someone's going to buy it.

thanks.

bune wrote: no no, that's the exact response I got (you can see it a little further down that thread) I just condensed it into "so?" because that's how it translates to me. I mean, they have an entire page about how they test for quality but then they turn around and sell whatever because someone's going to buy it.

HDTracks is bullshit. They don't give two shits about sound quality. They are just music peddlers.

The record companies don't care either.

Let's take The Monkees as a perfect example....

The original stereo and mono masters for their albums were discovered in the 90's. Before that, Rhino was using poor copy tapes mixed with remixes of songs they had multitracks for...horrible and inconsistent quality.

Guess which tapes HDTracks used and released?

The band's archivist was furious. He contacted Rhino and demanded they pull them and grab the correct original master tapes and use those.

They laughed at him. The shitty 80's masters are still being used on HDTracks right now.

Personally, it's my favorite record by the band. I don't care how it sounds. 2006 for me was this album. It comes flying out of the gates and stay strong all the way. The songs sounded great on what was the last real tour the band did too.

bune wrote:no no, that's the exact response I got (you can see it a little further down that thread) I just condensed it into "so?" because that's how it translates to me. I mean, they have an entire page about how they test for quality but then they turn around and sell whatever because someone's going to buy it.

thanks.

Checked out the thread. Thanks for the 411 on this. Good detectiving skills, bune, and thanks to tragabigzanda for the initial legwork. Gonna have to crank the streaming version of the 2017 mix now.

I'm still baffled at the notion that they would have prepared two distinct masters for this here re-mix, but, I clearly can't ascertain anything more without having direct access to the mastering engineer who worked on the project.

Wendy Carlos's Twin wrote: They laughed at him. The shitty 80's masters are still being used on HDTracks right now.

This is madness. Unfortunately, every storefront, regardless of the PR spiel on their individual websites, is beholden to the same masters (see what I done there? ). HDTracks, Prostudiomasters, Acoustic Sounds,, 7Digital, etc., all sell the same material.

VinylGuy wrote:

bune wrote:I really liked the Spotify mix that came out. has there ever been an acknowledgement of where that came from?

I dont think its available anymore on Spotify.

VinylGuy wrote:I saw just the O Brien mix and the original one.

Just to clarify, there are only two mixes of this album: Adam Kasper's original 2006 mix and Brendan O'Brien's 2017 mix.

There are however at least two different masterings of Kasper's 2006 mix.

The "Spotify version" of S/T is the exact same mix as the 2006 CD release however with a noticeably less brickwalled mastering job.

I wish it was available as a FLAC download but it's only available on streaming services, AFAIK.

Birds in Hell wrote: Just to clarify, there are only two mixes of this album: Adam Kasper's original 2006 mix and Brendan O'Brien's 2017 mix.

There are however at least two different masterings of Kasper's 2006 mix.

The "Spotify version" of S/T is the exact same mix as the 2006 CD release however with a noticeably less brickwalled mastering job.

I wish it was available as a FLAC download but it's only available on streaming services, AFAIK.

Thank you for the clarification! Very much appreciate it. Streaming only, after all? My OCD bristles!

Which do you prefer to listen to, Birds?

oneway23 wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote: Just to clarify, there are only two mixes of this album: Adam Kasper's original 2006 mix and Brendan O'Brien's 2017 mix.

There are however at least two different masterings of Kasper's 2006 mix.

The "Spotify version" of S/T is the exact same mix as the 2006 CD release however with a noticeably less brickwalled mastering job.

I wish it was available as a FLAC download but it's only available on streaming services, AFAIK.

Thank you for the clarification! Very much appreciate it. Streaming only, after all? My OCD bristles!

Which do you prefer to listen to, Birds?

I think the "Spotify mastering" is definitely the best the album has sounded.

Birds in Hell wrote:I think the "Spotify mastering" is definitely the best the album has sounded.

Sounds awful good from here...

Back in 2015, Van Halen's re-mastered catalog was re-released on the download services (after having initially been sold in 2013).
Turns out that the 24/192 release has very little (if any) dynamic range compression or peak-limiting applied, while the 24/96 was absolutely appalling, in comparison.

Perhaps, in this case, the 24/192 version of Avaocado on the download sites is similar to the "Spotify" version? I'm not going to pay to find out, but, it may be worth seeking out to compare.

Wendy Carlos's Twin wrote:

bune wrote: no no, that's the exact response I got (you can see it a little further down that thread) I just condensed it into "so?" because that's how it translates to me. I mean, they have an entire page about how they test for quality but then they turn around and sell whatever because someone's going to buy it.

HDTracks is bullshit. They don't give two shits about sound quality. They are just music peddlers.

The record companies don't care either.

Let's take The Monkees as a perfect example....

The original stereo and mono masters for their albums were discovered in the 90's. Before that, Rhino was using poor copy tapes mixed with remixes of songs they had multitracks for...horrible and inconsistent quality.

Guess which tapes HDTracks used and released?

The band's archivist was furious. He contacted Rhino and demanded they pull them and grab the correct original master tapes and use those.

They laughed at him. The shitty 80's masters are still being used on HDTracks right now.

wow. and it's not like there's a better place to find these things either if you want a hi-res album.

well, there's torrents I guess but I'm at the point where I can buy more stuff than not.

Birds in Hell wrote:

VinylGuy wrote:

bune wrote:I really liked the Spotify mix that came out. has there ever been an acknowledgement of where that came from?

I dont think its available anymore on Spotify.

VinylGuy wrote:I saw just the O Brien mix and the original one.

Just to clarify, there are only two mixes of this album: Adam Kasper's original 2006 mix and Brendan O'Brien's 2017 mix.

There are however at least two different masterings of Kasper's 2006 mix.

The "Spotify version" of S/T is the exact same mix as the 2006 CD release however with a noticeably less brickwalled mastering job.

I wish it was available as a FLAC download but it's only available on streaming services, AFAIK.

there was discussion last week-ish about other albums sounding different on Spotify.

dimejinky99 wrote:Ok what the hell is up.

That’s a different version of future days too


https://open.spotify.com/track/22sDLvlz ... vQZtNWDv9g

but it didn't get much traction in the thread.

http://forums.theskyiscrape.com/viewtop ... 0#p1454800

oneway23 wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:I think the "Spotify mastering" is definitely the best the album has sounded.

Sounds awful good from here...

Back in 2015, Van Halen's re-mastered catalog was re-released on the download services (after having initially been sold in 2013).
Turns out that the 24/192 release has very little (if any) dynamic range compression or peak-limiting applied, while the 24/96 was absolutely appalling, in comparison.

Perhaps, in this case, the 24/192 version of Avaocado on the download sites is similar to the "Spotify" version? I'm not going to pay to find out, but, it may be worth seeking out to compare.

they also released their albums in the HDCD format. However, if you use the hdcd.exe extension in foobar you'll see that absolutely zero HDCD er, 'formatting', was applied to the discs so they're basically clipped at 16 of the expected 20 bits of information.

Yeah, sounds like I know what I'm talking about doesn't it.

bune wrote:they also released their albums in the HDCD format. However, if you use the hdcd.exe extension in foobar you'll see that absolutely zero HDCD er, 'formatting', was applied to the discs so they're basically clipped at 16 of the expected 20 bits of information.

Yeah, sounds like I know what I'm talking about doesn't it.

That's pretty crappy! I recall those sounding pretty bad, too.

The 24/192 2015 re-masters sound excellent, IMO. As close to the studio reels as I'm ever likely to get.

Listened to ST on vinyl today. Man, what a ride. I just love this one so much and its been going up on my ranking a lot since last year.
The first 4 songs are up there with the best stuff they did, and maybe only Ten, Yield and Gigaton has such amazing first four songs.

Also, damn Stone, Jeff and Mike are on fire on this one.

I think it’s safe to say their most under appreciated album.

liebzz wrote:I think it’s safe to say their most under appreciated album.

Do you mean on RM?

If so, I could maybe agree. But I don't think it's as hated around here as some people seem to think. The artwork and the production get deserved flack but most people seem to enjoy the record.

And I know more than a handful of people IRL who love it. That includes more than a few who were introduced to Pearl Jam with this record and so it's still among their favorites by the band.

For me, the biggest "issue" is that it followed up Riot Act, which is a top 2 PJ record for me. Pretty much any album coming after that one was bound to be a step down.

epilogue wrote:

liebzz wrote:I think it’s safe to say their most under appreciated album.

Do you mean on RM?

If so, I could maybe agree. But I don't think it's as hated around here as some people seem to think. The artwork and the production get deserved flack but most people seem to enjoy the record.

And I know more than a handful of people IRL who love it. That includes more than a few who were introduced to Pearl Jam with this record and so it's still among their favorites by the band.

For me, the biggest "issue" is that it followed up Riot Act, which is a top 2 PJ record for me. Pretty much any album coming after that one was bound to be a step down.

Yes around here, I though I admit RM is basically my Pearl Jam fan base barometer at this point.

this is the first album on which they chose to include cheesy cringe like Big Wave; it wasn't as bad as Supersonic on BS but it was the gateway drug

VinylGuy wrote:Listened to ST on vinyl today. Man, what a ride. I just love this one so much and its been going up on my ranking a lot since last year.
The first 4 songs are up there with the best stuff they did, and maybe only Ten, Yield and Gigaton has such amazing first four songs.

Also, damn Stone, Jeff and Mike are on fire on this one.

I too was listening to this record today while working at home. I know I'm gonna get shit for this. But this may have the best vocals Ed ever put down an album in the studio. Flame me now.