Red Mosquito

Django Butterworth wrote:And I don't think McCready fails here, it was good enough to make the record.

This is dubious thinking here, Django.

Kevin Davis wrote:

Django Butterworth wrote:And I don't think McCready fails here, it was good enough to make the record.

This is dubious thinking here, Django.

How so?

Because of the implication that just because a song is on a record therefore means it's a successful piece of work (or "not a failure," if we're going to damn it with faint praise). There are a lot of terrible songs that get released to the public, I don't know what measure of "success" a song has achieved apart from mere existence by attaining this criteria.

Kevin Davis wrote:Because of the implication that just because a song is on a record therefore means it's a successful piece of work (or "not a failure," if we're going to damn it with faint praise). There are a lot of terrible songs that get released to the public, I don't know what measure of "success" a song has achieved apart from mere existence by attaining this criteria.

True, but what I am saying is that they had others to choose from and this is what made the record, so opinion of whether it's "good" or not aside, the band viewed it as successful and included it.

Django Butterworth wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:Because of the implication that just because a song is on a record therefore means it's a successful piece of work (or "not a failure," if we're going to damn it with faint praise). There are a lot of terrible songs that get released to the public, I don't know what measure of "success" a song has achieved apart from mere existence by attaining this criteria.

True, but what I am saying is that they had others to choose from and this is what made the record, so opinion of whether it's "good" or not aside, the band viewed it as successful and included it.

I wish they would have viewed Of The Earth as successful instead.

I haven't heard a studio take of it, so I don't know.

Django Butterworth wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:Because of the implication that just because a song is on a record therefore means it's a successful piece of work (or "not a failure," if we're going to damn it with faint praise). There are a lot of terrible songs that get released to the public, I don't know what measure of "success" a song has achieved apart from mere existence by attaining this criteria.

True, but what I am saying is that they had others to choose from and this is what made the record, so opinion of whether it's "good" or not aside, the band viewed it as successful and included it.

I suppose there's no denying the objective fact that the band included it on the record, but if this is your measure of success then I think you and everyone else are talking about two completely different things.

Since Mike is a friend to everyone in the band, and they witnessed his struggles and everything else, I'm sure the guys in the band thought the song was far more impactful then it actually ended up being.

I remember reading a review of the album before it was released by some guy who was connected with Easy Street Records or something. He said Inside Job might possibly be the best song the band has ever created to that point.

Stip: That's reasonable, and I am sympathetic to everything you say a couple pages back about observing a little understanding when someone is working outside his element. But I also observe a difference between granting Mike that leeway as a person and granting his song the same leeway as a consumer of music -- if I am out to dinner at my favorite restaurant, I am not going to keep quiet about my burnt steak just because the cook is still in training. At some point you have to just let all the baggage go and decide whether something is up to snuff.

Sometimes there is an endearing underdog quality when the "other guys" in the band -- any band -- takes the reins on a song of their own, but I just don't get that with "Inside Job." It's a dud in every sense.

what was that really great mike song that was on the xmas single a few years back? Tuning Mist or Turning Mist?

E.H. Ruddock wrote:what was that really great mike song that was on the xmas single a few years back? Tuning Mist or Turning Mist?

so great

Kevin Davis wrote:Stip: That's reasonable, and I am sympathetic to everything you say a couple pages back about observing a little understanding when someone is working outside his element. But I also observe a difference between granting Mike that leeway as a person and granting his song the same leeway as a consumer of music -- if I am out to dinner at my favorite restaurant, I am not going to keep quiet about my burnt steak just because the cook is still in training. At some point you have to just let all the baggage go and decide whether something is up to snuff.

Sometimes there is an endearing underdog quality when the "other guys" in the band -- any band -- takes the reins on a song of their own, but I just don't get that with "Inside Job." It's a dud in every sense.

I don't think it's a good song, just so I'm clear. I want to root for it, and the backstory makes it hard for me to dislike it (and there are elements that are pretty decent--it's just that the song is overlong and the moments I like are too minor to stand out in what so desperately wants to be a major song), but I don't think it's well done, and certainly doesn't deserve to make the album on its merits.

So the steak sucks, but I don't know that I'd go and complain to the owner about it.

I guess to me there are a lot of other songs I'd rather have omitted from records other than Inside Job.

I don't think it's nearly as bad as it's made out to be.

Mike's weak songs tend to not have enough of a personality for me to muster the energy to really dislike them.

Well, how you choose to feel is how you are.

stip wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:Stip: That's reasonable, and I am sympathetic to everything you say a couple pages back about observing a little understanding when someone is working outside his element. But I also observe a difference between granting Mike that leeway as a person and granting his song the same leeway as a consumer of music -- if I am out to dinner at my favorite restaurant, I am not going to keep quiet about my burnt steak just because the cook is still in training. At some point you have to just let all the baggage go and decide whether something is up to snuff.

Sometimes there is an endearing underdog quality when the "other guys" in the band -- any band -- takes the reins on a song of their own, but I just don't get that with "Inside Job." It's a dud in every sense.

I don't think it's a good song, just so I'm clear. I want to root for it, and the backstory makes it hard for me to dislike it (and there are elements that are pretty decent--it's just that the song is overlong and the moments I like are too minor to stand out in what so desperately wants to be a major song), but I don't think it's well done, and certainly doesn't deserve to make the album on its merits.

So the steak sucks, but I don't know that I'd go and complain to the owner about it.

When I met Mike, I didn't tell him I thought Inside Job sucks.

Django Butterworth wrote:I guess to me there are a lot of other songs I'd rather have omitted from records other than Inside Job.

I don't think it's nearly as bad as it's made out to be.

I'd rather listen to Inside Job than Unemployable, and possibly gone and/or big wave.

But I REALLY wish Cold Confession had made the record instead of one of those.

darth_vedder wrote:

stip wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:Stip: That's reasonable, and I am sympathetic to everything you say a couple pages back about observing a little understanding when someone is working outside his element. But I also observe a difference between granting Mike that leeway as a person and granting his song the same leeway as a consumer of music -- if I am out to dinner at my favorite restaurant, I am not going to keep quiet about my burnt steak just because the cook is still in training. At some point you have to just let all the baggage go and decide whether something is up to snuff.

Sometimes there is an endearing underdog quality when the "other guys" in the band -- any band -- takes the reins on a song of their own, but I just don't get that with "Inside Job." It's a dud in every sense.

I don't think it's a good song, just so I'm clear. I want to root for it, and the backstory makes it hard for me to dislike it (and there are elements that are pretty decent--it's just that the song is overlong and the moments I like are too minor to stand out in what so desperately wants to be a major song), but I don't think it's well done, and certainly doesn't deserve to make the album on its merits.

So the steak sucks, but I don't know that I'd go and complain to the owner about it.

When I met Mike, I didn't tell him I thought Inside Job sucks.