Red Mosquito

I think we're getting at the same point with the bold parts: Today, we're not even remotely at a critical mass of anger or loss to drive any meaningful change at the ballot

I need you to define what you mean by “meaningful change at the ballot.”

and that for such change to happen, it will take not only fully realized, personally experienced loss, en masse, like you describe, but also a counter-argument that is compelling on its own merits, beyond just "not Trump."

If you’re talking about winning and losing elections, I don’t think it will take either one of those things.

I tend to regard shame as a transactional currency of religion, e.g. "Feeling shameful? Here's how to wash yourself clean every Sunday."

Shame is natural. Shame is not a human invention. Shame is not property of the church.

You have provided a good demonstration of one of the many ways that shame has shaped our history. It facilitated the development of shared spiritual beliefs. It made us susceptible to the promise that, if we believe in the things that other people around us believe…our shame will in some way be resolved.

And I understand your logic that shame is, in fact, a part of the religious experience. But by unifying it, and codifying it, and communalizing it, you revoke some of it. That was the exchange.

And this is one of the reasons that modern political messaging and an online culture system have had such a detrimental effect on Christianity in America: given the choice between “shame is something that God uses to guide us,“ and “shame is something your enemies force upon you, and it can be stopped,“….far too many people favor the latter, because the latter feels like control. That is why you have a core political movement of our time that behaves like a cult.

And from what I've experienced about rural or resource-based economies prone to boom-bust cycles, the transaction of shame towards buy-in of a religious ideology is so much more resilient than political messaging or party affiliation.

From what I’ve experienced about rural or resource-based economies prone to boom bust cycles, there’s very little gap between the draw of religious ideology and one’s susceptibility to anti-shame narratives in political messaging.

McParry, we are getting a little philosophical here. Do you think all social constructs are inherently natural and not social constructs because that's one of my secret "conservative" beliefs.

Isn't it obvious that shame could have existed pre-religion. Example: Kid steals his brothers chunk of rabbit meat and is punished by parents and feels shame.

tragabigzanda wrote:I'm more interested in how he accounts for the leverage of shame enacted by the liberals. Is it somehow better to use shame as a political device when the party faithful espouse a political philosophy that anything other than strict adherence warrants shame? What if that philosophy proves to be a losing philosophy, at the expense of other pragmatic issues that impact a greater number of people?

Perhaps liberals have not been pragmatic enough. Or perhaps they are just outnumbered by bad faith actors in many places. Like if we blame liberal failure on liberals being too militant about certain problematic beliefs, then why hasn't the same thing sunk the trump movement?

tragabigzanda wrote:

Dev wrote:Isn't it obvious that shame could have existed pre-religion. Example: Kid steals his brothers chunk of rabbit meat and is punished by parents and feels shame.

yeah, sure. But it's almost certainly tied to human-borne dogma.

I mean religion is an exceptional vehicle for the most destructive types of shame. I don't disagree with that. I would say defining dogma could get tricky here. Because again breaking any cultural norm; going against any dogma could induce shame.

tragabigzanda wrote:

Dev wrote:Isn't it obvious that shame could have existed pre-religion. Example: Kid steals his brothers chunk of rabbit meat and is punished by parents and feels shame.

yeah, sure. But it's almost certainly tied to human-borne dogma.

If only there were a very important book that deals with this exact subject that we could read...

BurtReynolds wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

Dev wrote:Isn't it obvious that shame could have existed pre-religion. Example: Kid steals his brothers chunk of rabbit meat and is punished by parents and feels shame.

yeah, sure. But it's almost certainly tied to human-borne dogma.

If only there were a very important book that deals with this exact subject that we could read...

If ur gonna dunk on me at least name the book.

jesus was trans??

trans-human

Arresting judges now

judge breathe

E.H. Ruddock wrote:Arresting judges now

At the courthouse...

We're playing by the rulebook of evening television.

E.H. Ruddock wrote:Arresting judges now

US House Representatives as well.

Free George Santos!