Red Mosquito

Juvenal wrote:So, I'm not listening to this or the other new one until I get the album version as I'm not sure if live versions are the best introduction to a song. Am I missing much?

They're definitely not the best intro to a song, especially live versions by Pearl Jam. The song is decent and could possibly be good depending on what happens in the studio. Worrying chorus.

harmless wrote:

LetMeSleep wrote:

harmless wrote:

Hatfield wrote:I didn't see it discussed in this thread (could have missed it), but Ed sure seems to be expecting more from Mike there going into the ending. I don't recall seeing him curse in Mike's direction before.

I'm liking this song more and more.

Yup. I'm looking forward to hearing it as they intended it to sound.

I think you'll discover that LB Live at Wrigley is pretty close to how it's intended to sound.

Can we not do this again? I've done this too many times.

I've only just weighed in but from memory if a song has been recorded then they are pretty faithful when they debut it. If it hasn't been rec and produced when debuted then there may be differences. see BoJFK vs Supersonic/The End/Got Some etc.

I'm happy if you can de-myth this but PJ are usually very faithful to the studio songs (initially).

(also, I haven't read the entire thread and I apologise if this has been covered.)

harmless wrote:

Hatfield wrote:I didn't see it discussed in this thread (could have missed it), but Ed sure seems to be expecting more from Mike there going into the ending. I don't recall seeing him curse in Mike's direction before.

I'm liking this song more and more.

Yup. I'm looking forward to hearing it as they intended it to sound.

LOL My son loves to play this song on repeat while hes playing with his Cars race track and racing his "Lightning" McQueen on it...he says its his "road" song. lol

LetMeSleep wrote:

harmless wrote:

LetMeSleep wrote:

harmless wrote:

Hatfield wrote:I didn't see it discussed in this thread (could have missed it), but Ed sure seems to be expecting more from Mike there going into the ending. I don't recall seeing him curse in Mike's direction before.

I'm liking this song more and more.

Yup. I'm looking forward to hearing it as they intended it to sound.

I think you'll discover that LB Live at Wrigley is pretty close to how it's intended to sound.

Can we not do this again? I've done this too many times.

I've only just weighed in but from memory if a song has been recorded then they are pretty faithful when they debut it. If it hasn't been rec and produced when debuted then there may be differences. see BoJFK vs Supersonic/The End/Got Some etc.

I'm happy if you can de-myth this but PJ are usually very faithful to the studio songs (initially).

(also, I haven't read the entire thread and I apologise if this has been covered.)

OK, my arguments too many times now have been basically that 1) PJ aren't terrific live anymore, and they get lyrics wrong, they get guitar notes wrong etc. 2) On evidence from the video (namely Ed shouting "FUCK" at Mike), it's possible that both happened in this performance, and 3) PJ aren't terrific live and their performances are frequently a thinner, less accurate version of what was on CD. A classic example of that is RVM, whose live version is not a patch on the original due to the fact that they are thrashing around on the chords, all three of them, and nobody is playing Mike's lead guitar parts which basically own the song. So yeah, a lot of people have more faith in PJ to reproduce anything live. For me, there's any number of possible points where this live version could've paled in comparison to what they've recorded.

If I ask myself 'What live songs are currently reliable indications of their CD versions?' I'm not sure I can think of a single one.

harmless wrote:

Juvenal wrote:So, I'm not listening to this or the other new one until I get the album version as I'm not sure if live versions are the best introduction to a song. Am I missing much?

They're definitely not the best intro to a song, especially live versions by Pearl Jam. The song is decent and could possibly be good depending on what happens in the studio. Worrying chorus.

Cool, thank you.

PS I've completely forgot about Of The Earth. It's perhaps the opposite - I love it live and am worried about them neutering it in the studio...

Juvenal wrote:

harmless wrote:

Juvenal wrote:So, I'm not listening to this or the other new one until I get the album version as I'm not sure if live versions are the best introduction to a song. Am I missing much?

They're definitely not the best intro to a song, especially live versions by Pearl Jam. The song is decent and could possibly be good depending on what happens in the studio. Worrying chorus.

Cool, thank you.

PS I've completely forgot about Of The Earth. It's perhaps the opposite - I love it live and am worried about them neutering it in the studio...

Yup. I still think the ambient music from the tour vid, plus the slightly more bare-bones approach of MYM, gives us reason to hope that they won't be neutered too much. Maybe a little bit; we won't get another No Code / Riot Act or anything.

harmless wrote:

Juvenal wrote:

harmless wrote:

Juvenal wrote:So, I'm not listening to this or the other new one until I get the album version as I'm not sure if live versions are the best introduction to a song. Am I missing much?

They're definitely not the best intro to a song, especially live versions by Pearl Jam. The song is decent and could possibly be good depending on what happens in the studio. Worrying chorus.

Cool, thank you.

PS I've completely forgot about Of The Earth. It's perhaps the opposite - I love it live and am worried about them neutering it in the studio...

Yup. I still think the ambient music from the tour vid, plus the slightly more bare-bones approach of MYM, gives us reason to hope that they won't be neutered too much. Maybe a little bit; we won't get another No Code / Riot Act or anything.

More's the pity.

harmless wrote: OK, my arguments too many times now have been basically that 1) PJ aren't terrific live anymore, and they get lyrics wrong, they get guitar notes wrong etc. 2) On evidence from the video (namely Ed shouting "FUCK" at Mike), it's possible that both happened in this performance, and 3) PJ aren't terrific live and their performances are frequently a thinner, less accurate version of what was on CD. A classic example of that is RVM, whose live version is not a patch on the original due to the fact that they are thrashing around on the chords, all three of them, and nobody is playing Mike's lead guitar parts which basically own the song. So yeah, a lot of people have more faith in PJ to reproduce anything live. For me, there's any number of possible points where this live version could've paled in comparison to what they've recorded.

Well the issue with what you say if that you can't always replicate exactly what happens in the studio. Guitar overdubs, vocal overdubs etc are limitations live. You just have to do the best given the 6 people performing the song. Using RVM as a ref(and from memory as I haven't heard the studio for months), live there are less vocal lines, less guitar lines and percussion (if there was any) not to mention a completely different drummer. But the incorrect notes and flubbed lyrics doesn't really change the general performance and style of the played track. PJ are not Bob Dylan and they do not change their delivery of their tracks very much at with the exception of different guitar and drum tones, and maybe dropping tunings.

harmless wrote:
OK, my arguments too many times now have been basically that 1) PJ aren't terrific live anymore, and they get lyrics wrong, they get guitar notes wrong etc. 2) On evidence from the video (namely Ed shouting "FUCK" at Mike), it's possible that both happened in this performance, and 3) PJ aren't terrific live and their performances are frequently a thinner, less accurate version of what was on CD. A classic example of that is RVM, whose live version is not a patch on the original due to the fact that they are thrashing around on the chords, all three of them, and nobody is playing Mike's lead guitar parts which basically own the song. So yeah, a lot of people have more faith in PJ to reproduce anything live. For me, there's any number of possible points where this live version could've paled in comparison to what they've recorded.

Yes, but the version of RVM close to it's studio release are, I believe, pretty accurate to the studio rendition. Also, take Grievance from Letterman. Or even Mind Your Manners; other than it being a pretty raw sound, it hews relatively closely to the studio rendition. If the gap between Lightning Bolt in the studio vs. live is as small as the gap between Mind Your Manners, I think we can speak to how good a song we think it is without knowing the little touches there will be in the studio.

LetMeSleep wrote:

harmless wrote: OK, my arguments too many times now have been basically that 1) PJ aren't terrific live anymore, and they get lyrics wrong, they get guitar notes wrong etc. 2) On evidence from the video (namely Ed shouting "FUCK" at Mike), it's possible that both happened in this performance, and 3) PJ aren't terrific live and their performances are frequently a thinner, less accurate version of what was on CD. A classic example of that is RVM, whose live version is not a patch on the original due to the fact that they are thrashing around on the chords, all three of them, and nobody is playing Mike's lead guitar parts which basically own the song. So yeah, a lot of people have more faith in PJ to reproduce anything live. For me, there's any number of possible points where this live version could've paled in comparison to what they've recorded.

Well the issue with what you say if that you can't always replicate exactly what happens in the studio. Guitar overdubs, vocal overdubs etc are limitations live. You just have to do the best given the 6 people performing the song. Using RVM as a ref(and from memory as I haven't heard the studio for months), live there are less vocal lines, less guitar lines and percussion (if there was any). But the incorrect notes and flubbed lyrics doesn't really change the general performance and style of the played track. PJ are not Bob Dylan and they do not change their delivery of their tracks very much at with the exception of different guitar and drum tones, and maybe dropping tunings.

None of which argues against my initial premise that the live version of this song may not be a representative and / or reliable representation of the studio version.

digster wrote:Yes, but the version of RVM close to it's studio release are, I believe, pretty accurate to the studio rendition. Also, take Grievance from Letterman. Or even Mind Your Manners; other than it being a pretty raw sound, it hews relatively closely to the studio rendition. If the gap between Lightning Bolt in the studio vs. live is as small as the gap between Mind Your Manners, I think we can speak to how good a song we think it is without knowing the little touches there will be in the studio.

Exactly. PJ are very faithful to their studio versions.

harmless wrote:

LetMeSleep wrote:

harmless wrote: OK, my arguments too many times now have been basically that 1) PJ aren't terrific live anymore, and they get lyrics wrong, they get guitar notes wrong etc. 2) On evidence from the video (namely Ed shouting "FUCK" at Mike), it's possible that both happened in this performance, and 3) PJ aren't terrific live and their performances are frequently a thinner, less accurate version of what was on CD. A classic example of that is RVM, whose live version is not a patch on the original due to the fact that they are thrashing around on the chords, all three of them, and nobody is playing Mike's lead guitar parts which basically own the song. So yeah, a lot of people have more faith in PJ to reproduce anything live. For me, there's any number of possible points where this live version could've paled in comparison to what they've recorded.

Well the issue with what you say if that you can't always replicate exactly what happens in the studio. Guitar overdubs, vocal overdubs etc are limitations live. You just have to do the best given the 6 people performing the song. Using RVM as a ref(and from memory as I haven't heard the studio for months), live there are less vocal lines, less guitar lines and percussion (if there was any). But the incorrect notes and flubbed lyrics doesn't really change the general performance and style of the played track. PJ are not Bob Dylan and they do not change their delivery of their tracks very much at with the exception of different guitar and drum tones, and maybe dropping tunings.

None of which argues against my initial premise that the live version of this song may not be a representative and / or reliable representation of the studio version.

To which my response once again is:

from memory if a song has been recorded then they are pretty faithful when they debut it. If it hasn't been rec and produced when debuted then there may be differences. see BoJFK vs Supersonic/The End/Got Some etc.

I'm happy if you can de-myth this but PJ are usually very faithful to the studio songs (initially).

harmless wrote:None of which argues against my initial premise that the live version of this song may not be a representative and / or reliable representation of the studio version.

Oh come on. PJ aren't going to have a drum machine on this. Matt probably has played this 95% exactly as recorded. Jeff will have done the same as will all of the guitars, even with the flubs. In fact the flubs if anything argue the case that they were playing this from a memorised template and logic would indicate that that was the version that they put to tape.

I don't know what the studio track sound like obviously but it was clear that that performance of LB was full of flubs.

digster wrote:

harmless wrote:
OK, my arguments too many times now have been basically that 1) PJ aren't terrific live anymore, and they get lyrics wrong, they get guitar notes wrong etc. 2) On evidence from the video (namely Ed shouting "FUCK" at Mike), it's possible that both happened in this performance, and 3) PJ aren't terrific live and their performances are frequently a thinner, less accurate version of what was on CD. A classic example of that is RVM, whose live version is not a patch on the original due to the fact that they are thrashing around on the chords, all three of them, and nobody is playing Mike's lead guitar parts which basically own the song. So yeah, a lot of people have more faith in PJ to reproduce anything live. For me, there's any number of possible points where this live version could've paled in comparison to what they've recorded.

Yes, but the version of RVM close to it's studio release are, I believe, pretty accurate to the studio rendition. Also, take Grievance from Letterman. Or even Mind Your Manners; other than it being a pretty raw sound, it hews relatively closely to the studio rendition. If the gap between Lightning Bolt in the studio vs. live is as small as the gap between Mind Your Manners, I think we can speak to how good a song we think it is without knowing the little touches there will be in the studio.

Well, sure. But I already gave it a 3/5. I'm thinking that most people who are arguing with what I'm saying have written it off as terrible. I would like to add one point to it, that's all. And I think the little touches may not be so little. At the risk of repeating myself, I just don't really enjoy hearing PJ live much anymore, and their performances are simply not reflective of the songs in the studio. Like, ever. Once they were, but you'd have to go back a fairly long way to find instances of well-played live versions which were even a patch on the originals (and you have, stating old versions of RM). A lot of people think that some of the S/T songs were better live, and I agreed at the time. Why would people say 'Song X is better live' if the live versions were really that close? They aren't. A live version can either improve upon or detract from a studio version. The differences may be subtle, but hey, I happen to think subtleties make all the difference. Subtleties can turn an OK song into a good or a great one.

"Future Days" will probably sound almost exactly like the live version, but with strings. In fact, I'm willing to put down money on it. WHO WANTS TO BET ME.

LetMeSleep wrote:

harmless wrote:None of which argues against my initial premise that the live version of this song may not be a representative and / or reliable representation of the studio version.

Oh come on. PJ aren't going to have a drum machine on this. Matt probably has played this 95% exactly as recorded. Jeff will have done the same as will all of the guitars, even with the flubs. In fact the flubs if anything argue the case that they were playing this from a memorised template and logic would indicate that that was the version that they put to tape.

If you haven't understood what I'm saying so far, you won't. Which is no biggy, but 'Oh come on' won't change my mind or make me wrong.

harmless wrote:

digster wrote:

harmless wrote:
OK, my arguments too many times now have been basically that 1) PJ aren't terrific live anymore, and they get lyrics wrong, they get guitar notes wrong etc. 2) On evidence from the video (namely Ed shouting "FUCK" at Mike), it's possible that both happened in this performance, and 3) PJ aren't terrific live and their performances are frequently a thinner, less accurate version of what was on CD. A classic example of that is RVM, whose live version is not a patch on the original due to the fact that they are thrashing around on the chords, all three of them, and nobody is playing Mike's lead guitar parts which basically own the song. So yeah, a lot of people have more faith in PJ to reproduce anything live. For me, there's any number of possible points where this live version could've paled in comparison to what they've recorded.

Yes, but the version of RVM close to it's studio release are, I believe, pretty accurate to the studio rendition. Also, take Grievance from Letterman. Or even Mind Your Manners; other than it being a pretty raw sound, it hews relatively closely to the studio rendition. If the gap between Lightning Bolt in the studio vs. live is as small as the gap between Mind Your Manners, I think we can speak to how good a song we think it is without knowing the little touches there will be in the studio.

Well, sure. But I already gave it a 3/5. I'm thinking that most people who are arguing with what I'm saying have written it off as terrible. I would like to add one point to it, that's all. And I think the little touches may not be so little. At the risk of repeating myself, I just don't really enjoy hearing PJ live much anymore, and their performances are simply not reflective of the songs in the studio. Like, ever. Once they were, but you'd have to go back a fairly long way to find instances of well-played live versions which were even a patch on the originals (and you have, stating old versions of RM). A lot of people think that some of the S/T songs were better live, and I agreed at the time. Why would people say 'Song X is better live' if the live versions were really that close? They aren't. A live version can either improve upon or detract from a studio version. The differences may be subtle, but hey, I happen to think subtleties make all the difference. Subtleties can turn an OK song into a good or a great one.

Team Harmless.
The only reason I find any ST song better live is because of how shitty that album sounds. I think the performances on the album are better than most live versions I've heard though.

LetMeSleep wrote:

digster wrote:Yes, but the version of RVM close to it's studio release are, I believe, pretty accurate to the studio rendition. Also, take Grievance from Letterman. Or even Mind Your Manners; other than it being a pretty raw sound, it hews relatively closely to the studio rendition. If the gap between Lightning Bolt in the studio vs. live is as small as the gap between Mind Your Manners, I think we can speak to how good a song we think it is without knowing the little touches there will be in the studio.

Exactly. PJ are very faithful to their studio versions.

They aren't though. Not ever.