HBO: Game of Thrones (Song of Ice and Fire)

[Strat]

We're two episodes into S5 on the full series re-watch. This is a bit more enjoyable with more distance from the books. But I'm finding that my overall impression of the show hasn't much changed. An involved, engaging story that works best when it goes micro on character and motivations, performed by a brilliant cast. But there's no way this show ranks in the top 10 TV shows of all time. It's good, not great. And it's full of problems both in the storytelling and in real world social context.

Goddamn I love Arya so much. Even if George never finishes these books, I hope he can at least finish writing Arya's arc.

Explain.

I swear to God Joey if you are referring to the way men treat women in this show im going to smack you

[epilogue]

We're two episodes into S5 on the full series re-watch. This is a bit more enjoyable with more distance from the books. But I'm finding that my overall impression of the show hasn't much changed. An involved, engaging story that works best when it goes micro on character and motivations, performed by a brilliant cast. But there's no way this show ranks in the top 10 TV shows of all time. It's good, not great. And it's full of problems both in the storytelling and in real world social context.

Goddamn I love Arya so much. Even if George never finishes these books, I hope he can at least finish writing Arya's arc.

Explain.

I swear to God Joey if you are referring to the way men treat women in this show im going to smack you

Yes and no.

I'm referring to the way the creators write and direct the show. The character's behaviors are not always the issue (though there are several troubling examples where they are the issue: look no further than Jaime's completely gratuitous and illogical raping of his sister). It's a brutal, misogynistic world. Many of the men in the show treat women badly because of the culture of the world they live in. That's a part of the world building. And maybe there should or shouldn't be a larger discussion within the world about that stuff. Maybe George RR Martin should have a point of view about that stuff.

But what I'm talking about is more complex and nuanced than that kind of reductionist thinking. I'm talking about the way the writers and directors treat the female characters, to be sure. But also minorities. But also the behind the scenes issues. All the stuff I'm sure we've all read/heard about how problematic the show (not the story) is.

[Simple Torture]

My wife quit on the show before we even got to some of the most troubling ways the show deals with issues like the ones Joey describes. She was not interested at all once the more fantastical elements of the series began to come to the fore--dragons, fire magic, smoke babies, etc.--although she was still interested in the human drama of it. I asked if she wanted me to tell her what happened to the characters she actually cared about (like Robb and Arya), but she said no, just in case she wanted to jump back in someday.

[Strat]

My wife quit on the show before we even got to some of the most troubling ways the show deals with issues like the ones Joey describes. She was not interested at all once the more fantastical elements of the series began to come to the fore--dragons, fire magic, smoke babies, etc.--although she was still interested in the human drama of it. I asked if she wanted me to tell her what happened to the characters she actually cared about (like Robb and Arya), but she said no, just in case she wanted to jump back in someday.

This is exactly where and why my GF bailed.

Too bad, im into season 3 now and its maybe my favorite. That is when things get real interesting.

[Strat]

We're two episodes into S5 on the full series re-watch. This is a bit more enjoyable with more distance from the books. But I'm finding that my overall impression of the show hasn't much changed. An involved, engaging story that works best when it goes micro on character and motivations, performed by a brilliant cast. But there's no way this show ranks in the top 10 TV shows of all time. It's good, not great. And it's full of problems both in the storytelling and in real world social context.

Goddamn I love Arya so much. Even if George never finishes these books, I hope he can at least finish writing Arya's arc.

Explain.

I swear to God Joey if you are referring to the way men treat women in this show im going to smack you

Yes and no.

I'm referring to the way the creators write and direct the show. The character's behaviors are not always the issue (though there are several troubling examples where they are the issue: look no further than Jaime's completely gratuitous and illogical raping of his sister). It's a brutal, misogynistic world. Many of the men in the show treat women badly because of the culture of the world they live in. That's a part of the world building. And maybe there should or shouldn't be a larger discussion within the world about that stuff. Maybe or maybe George RR Martin should have a point of view about that stuff.

But why I'm talking about is more complex and nuanced than that kind of reductionist thinking. I'm talking about the way the writers and directors treat the female characters, to be sure. But also minorities. But also the behind the scenes issues. All the stuff I'm sure we've all read/heard about how problematic the show (not the story) is.

I always assumed Martin was a sick and twisted asshole that was lucky enough to find a creative outlet for his sick fantasies rather than them playing out in real life.

[Simple Torture]

I always assumed Martin was a sick and twisted asshole that was lucky enough to find a creative outlet for his sick fantasies rather than them playing out in real life.

[epilogue]

Part of the reason that I adore the 4th book is that it appears (in my reading of the text) that Marin is actually finally addressing the misogyny and toxic masculinity in a fascinating way. It's rare in high fantasy to see those ideas/themes turned on their heads and Martin seems to be doing just that. It's a feminist book. At least, it is to me. And I fucking love it.

I won't know until he finishes the thing if that's what he's intended. But he's putting things into motion that seem as though they have to play out in a fucking great way. It feels like he has something interesting to say about women and their place in his fantasy world. I really hope I'm write about where I think he's going with that stuff.

The show dismisses almost all of this stuff, though. When any of it is addressed at all it's either tossed off immediately or treated as whimsical. And I find it disappointing.

But again it's not just the toxic masculinity and misogyny. There's the way the conversations of "the other" is poorly handled. And the way that people of color are depicted (and not just the characters in the world but the actors on a show). The show can be problematic.

But it overcomes some of that by being well written otherwise and striking to look at. The show's biggest strength, by far, is its cast. These motherfuckers can ACT.

[Norah]

You should read the Fire and Blood chapters on the Good Queen Alysanne.

[Simple Torture]

I really hope I'm write

We all hope GRRM will just keeps writing, so I forgive you this one. But just this one.

[epilogue]

You should read the Fire and Blood chapters on the Good Queen Alysanne.

I've been craving this stupid non-Ice and Fire book lately. I'm gonna cave and read the stupid goddamn thing soon. I just know it. Fuck!

[epilogue]

I really hope I'm write

We all hope GRRM will just keeps writing, so I forgive you this one. But just this one.

You are fair. You are wise. It is known.

[Anders]

It’s a bit funny that the show gets this criticism (even if it’s less of the books), since I see Martin as a big leftie and feminist.

I don’t have any problem with that part of the show. I think the women and the minorities are even stronger represented than in the books. Besides, it’s a fantasy story. If anyone is treated badly, it’s all part of the world.

[Simple Torture]

I don't think this necessarily needs to be re-litigated, but I don't think very many people argue that these issues shouldn't be represented, but that how they're represented matters.

[Bammer]

Durden, it’s a cruel world out there. Grow a pair.

Anyway I just finished re-watching the entire series. Bold prediction: Tyrion is conspiring with Cersei (false promise of Lannister soldiers marching north to fight ... Euron ferrying the Golden Company over from Essos ...). I realize that’s insane but would be a sweet I Told You So.

[Norah]

Durden, it’s a cruel world out there. Grow a pair.

Anyway I just finished re-watching the entire series. Bold prediction: Tyrion is conspiring with Cersei (false promise of Lannister soldiers marching north to fight ... Euron ferrying the Golden Company over from Essos ...). I realize that’s insane but would be a sweet I Told You So.

don't be an idiot

[Monkey_Driven]

Durden, it’s a cruel world out there. Grow a pair.

Anyway I just finished re-watching the entire series. Bold prediction: Tyrion is conspiring with Cersei (false promise of Lannister soldiers marching north to fight ... Euron ferrying the Golden Company over from Essos ...). I realize that’s insane but would be a sweet I Told You So.

don't be an idiot

Hahahaha. I was waiting for you to chime in.

[Bammer]

Durden, it’s a cruel world out there. Grow a pair.

Anyway I just finished re-watching the entire series. Bold prediction: Tyrion is conspiring with Cersei (false promise of Lannister soldiers marching north to fight ... Euron ferrying the Golden Company over from Essos ...). I realize that’s insane but would be a sweet I Told You So.

don't be an idiot

Durden still needs to grow a pair.

[Mecca]

It’s a bit funny that the show gets this criticism (even if it’s less of the books), since I see Martin as a big leftie and feminist.

I don’t have any problem with that part of the show. I think the women and the minorities are even stronger represented than in the books. Besides, it’s a fantasy story. If anyone is treated badly, it’s all part of the world.

I’ll never understand the people who truly have a problem with the fact that women and people of color are treated poorly when the setting is based on a time period where those people were very much treated poorly by white men in positions of power. I don’t think the depictions on the show really ever celebrated those actions eithe. It’s uncomfortable to watch Sansa be raped because rape is a fucking horrible thing and it’s supposed to be uncomfortable to behold. Does it need to happen in the overall narrative? No, but it makes sense for Ramsay to do so.

[Norah]

Wait but Sansa never... oh shit wrong thread

[Mecca]

Wait but Sansa never... oh shit wrong thread

Chud chud, rhymes with Rudd