Red Mosquito

tragabigzanda wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:who knows everything with Paltrow but her? Maybe it happened so many times that it her norm became "the only way I'll be successful is to not speak about this, because the men in this industry have all the power"?

It surely isn't for me to decide that she had it "easier" because it wasn't physical abuse.

I mean, her mom is Blythe Danner; I'm sure she was aware of the culture from a very young age.

I was about to white knight you here bro, but you gotta know when to stop digging.

I wasn't implying anything at all, simply stating that Ms. Paltrow's experience with Harvey was likely not her first rodeo.

How does that make it any less wrong?

We're getting there....so close.....i can feel it.

This conversation should have gone:

Trag: Does anyone see a double standard between calling out those aligning with Trump and those who didn't speak out against Weinstein?

RM: No. Here's why:

RM: *Posts about why*

Trag: Ah, gotcha.

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:who knows everything with Paltrow but her? Maybe it happened so many times that it her norm became "the only way I'll be successful is to not speak about this, because the men in this industry have all the power"?

It surely isn't for me to decide that she had it "easier" because it wasn't physical abuse.

I mean, her mom is Blythe Danner; I'm sure she was aware of the culture from a very young age.

I was about to white knight you here bro, but you gotta know when to stop digging.

I wasn't implying anything at all, simply stating that Ms. Paltrow's experience with Harvey was likely not her first rodeo.

How does that make it any less wrong?

I'm not assigning blame to Ms. Paltrow; just suggesting that her decision to keep her mouth shut has likely hurt other people. Where her personal exposure to sexual oppression ends and her culpability begins is beyond my knowledge. But the more we talk about it, the more I am thinking it's a big, messy gray area, and that the Strats and durdens of the world are perhaps not being as helpful as they think they are.

If a woman were to start a #speakup campaign, she'd be lauded; were I to start it, I'd get called out for victim shaming, and perhaps correctly. It's just an interesting dichotomy to me.

washing machine wrote:This conversation should have gone:

Trag: Does anyone see a double standard between calling out those aligning with Trump and those who didn't speak out against Weinstein?

RM: No. Here's why:

RM: *Posts about why*

Trag: Ah, gotcha.

I miss LittleWing too

AL

tragabigzanda wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:who knows everything with Paltrow but her? Maybe it happened so many times that it her norm became "the only way I'll be successful is to not speak about this, because the men in this industry have all the power"?

It surely isn't for me to decide that she had it "easier" because it wasn't physical abuse.

I mean, her mom is Blythe Danner; I'm sure she was aware of the culture from a very young age.

I was about to white knight you here bro, but you gotta know when to stop digging.

I wasn't implying anything at all, simply stating that Ms. Paltrow's experience with Harvey was likely not her first rodeo.

How does that make it any less wrong?

I'm not assigning blame to Ms. Paltrow; just suggesting that her decision to keep her mouth shut has likely hurt other people. Where her personal exposure to sexual oppression ends and her culpability begins is beyond my knowledge. But the more we talk about it, the more I am thinking it's a big, messy gray area, and that the Strats and durdens of the world are perhaps not being as helpful as they think they are.

If a woman were to start a #speakup campaign, she'd be lauded; were I to start it, I'd get called out for victim shaming, and perhaps correctly. It's just an interesting dichotomy to me.

So we should hold the women more accountable than the men? You are putting blame on the women in this and that is what is interesting to us.

and you aren't doing a "speak up" campaign. You are saying things like "not her first rodeo" and placing blame on her keeping her mouth quiet as to why others suffered (again, victim blaming), and this ridiculous thing " should extend mostly to victims of violent or highly traumatic sexual assault"

So, there is a level of assault that is okay to you where a woman should speak up?

I can't believe im having this conversation.

Trump likes to just grab 'em by the pussy.

Trag, im sorry, but your commentary in this conversation is exactly the reason why women don't speak up.

tragabigzanda wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:who knows everything with Paltrow but her? Maybe it happened so many times that it her norm became "the only way I'll be successful is to not speak about this, because the men in this industry have all the power"?

It surely isn't for me to decide that she had it "easier" because it wasn't physical abuse.

I mean, her mom is Blythe Danner; I'm sure she was aware of the culture from a very young age.

I was about to white knight you here bro, but you gotta know when to stop digging.

I wasn't implying anything at all, simply stating that Ms. Paltrow's experience with Harvey was likely not her first rodeo.

How does that make it any less wrong?

I'm not assigning blame to Ms. Paltrow; just suggesting that her decision to keep her mouth shut has likely hurt other people. Where her personal exposure to sexual oppression ends and her culpability begins is beyond my knowledge. But the more we talk about it, the more I am thinking it's a big, messy gray area, and that the Strats and durdens of the world are perhaps not being as helpful as they think they are.

If a woman were to start a #speakup campaign, she'd be lauded; were I to start it, I'd get called out for victim shaming, and perhaps correctly. It's just an interesting dichotomy to me.

No you're right:

"That man propositioned me and then threatened it would hurt my career if I didn't make the right decision."
"Okay but did you even see his dick?"
"Well, no... but --"
"Pffft. You're fine. Women! Am I right?"

Is far more helpful than:

"You should educate yourself on this issue if you're going to continue to talk about it. Really think about what you're saying. Maybe shut up and listen to some women and other minorities about their points of view and experiences, let them talk to you and really listen before you opine about stuff you can't understand on their level. And maybe once you've read up and listened and actually considered all the angels and tried to empathize, then perhaps we can have a productive conversation."

It isn't a messy gray area. That's the problem. That's your disconnect.

Strat wrote:Trag, im sorry, but your commentary in this conversation is exactly the reason why women don't speak up.

Bingo.

Ugh

durdencommatyler wrote: No you're right:

"That man propositioned me and then threatened it would hurt my career if I didn't make the right decision."
"Okay but did you even see his dick?"
"Well, no... but --"
"Pffft. You're fine. Women! Am I right?"

Is far more helpful than:

"You should educate yourself on this issue if you're going to continue to talk about it. Really think about what you're saying. Maybe shut up and listen to some women and other minorities about their points of view and experiences, let them talk to you and really listen before you opine about stuff you can't understand on their level. And maybe once you've read up and listened and actually considered all the angels and tried to empathize, then perhaps we can have a productive conversation."

It isn't a messy gray area. That's the problem. That's your disconnect.

That bold sentence is a big jump on your part. I never even remotely suggested brushing off the discomfort of anyone who has been propositioned to trade sex for career opportunities.

The second part, where you tell me to shut up? That's really all over the place. For starters I've been a victim of sexual abuse; have many female friends who have also been victims; and regularly witnessed female workshops on survival, self-defense training, and the like when I worked for a prominent women's non-profit from 2002-2005. I've got plenty of understanding and empathy; that does not equate to a blanket absolution of any female who knew that Harvey was a predator.

All I'm asking is: At what point are the informed-yet-silent people culpable? It seems like RM's near-unanimous answer is "never." Which I don't buy at face value; nor do I outright reject it. But it's funny how my question has really ruffled some feathers, as if the mere notion of men discussing the various approaches to ending sexual oppression in the workplace is somehow damaging to women or a de facto endorsement of the behavior.

tragabigzanda wrote:I never even remotely suggested brushing off the discomfort of anyone who has been propositioned to trade sex for career opportunities.

You've been doing this all day.

tragabigzanda wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote: No you're right:

"That man propositioned me and then threatened it would hurt my career if I didn't make the right decision."
"Okay but did you even see his dick?"
"Well, no... but --"
"Pffft. You're fine. Women! Am I right?"

Is far more helpful than:

"You should educate yourself on this issue if you're going to continue to talk about it. Really think about what you're saying. Maybe shut up and listen to some women and other minorities about their points of view and experiences, let them talk to you and really listen before you opine about stuff you can't understand on their level. And maybe once you've read up and listened and actually considered all the angels and tried to empathize, then perhaps we can have a productive conversation."

It isn't a messy gray area. That's the problem. That's your disconnect.

That bold sentence is a big jump on your part. I never even remotely suggested brushing off the discomfort of anyone who has been propositioned to trade sex for career opportunities.

The second part, where you tell me to shut up? That's really all over the place. For starters I've been a victim of sexual abuse; have many female friends who have also been victims; and regularly witnessed female workshops on survival, self-defense training, and the like when I worked for a prominent women's non-profit from 2002-2005. I've got plenty of understanding and empathy; that does not equate to a blanket absolution of any female who knew that Harvey was a predator.

All I'm asking is: At what point are the informed-yet-silent people culpable? It seems like RM's near-unanimous answer is "never." Which I don't buy at face value; nor do I outright reject it. But it's funny how my question has really ruffled some feathers, as if the mere notion of men discussing the various approaches to ending sexual oppression in the workplace is somehow damaging to women or a de facto endorsement of the behavior.

But you are not doing this at all.

tragabigzanda wrote:All I'm asking is: At what point are the informed-yet-silent people culpable?

I don't think culpable is the right term here. Women are in the ultimate "damned if you do and damned if you don't" situation. You can't really blame what happens to other women on those that came before. They're in a precarious situation that I'm sure feels almost impossible to get out of. Sexual abuse is way too personal an issue to paint with such a broad stroke as, "if Lady A have spoken up years ago, it wouldn't have happened to the Ladies B and C." And I do somewhat feel that we, as men, have to respect the choices the women make in this matter. It's something that happened TO THEM and they have to be able to choose how or when or even if it gets shared with other people.

cutuphalfdead wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:I never even remotely suggested brushing off the discomfort of anyone who has been propositioned to trade sex for career opportunities.

You've been doing this all day.

Oh for fuck's sake. Raising a question and challenging the conventional outlook does not mean I'm brushing aside discomfort of survivors of sexual assault.

Here's a thought exercise for us all:

Your dear friend Lupita calls you up and tell you that a powerful industry executive just propositioned her; if she gave him oral sex, she would get a great movie role. But she declined and left, without the episode advancing beyond his repeated verbal insistence. Sshe confides in you that she has heard worse stories about this executive before, and she is concerned that other women may not be as skilled at avoiding his predatory behavior. Do you:

A) Offer her a shoulder to cry on until the day one of you dies. You sleep soundly in the belief that by allowing Lupita to speak up if/when she so chooses, you have supported her in reclaiming the power in this situation;

B) Sound the alarm! You call the cops, contact the New York Times, start buying feminist literature, and stop frequenting porn sites. You get a furry pink hat, and you sleep soundly in the knowledge that you've stopped at least one serial sexual abuser.

C) Strongly advocate that Lupita files a police report, and/or contacts a reporter depending on her outcome with the police; tell her that while you respect her desire for comfort and power in sharing her story, you maintain a valid concern for the other potential victims who may come his way. You feel a moral obligation to them just as much as you do to Lupita, and you may have to say something to someone at a yet-to-be-determined point in the future.

I'd go with C. If any of you guys pick A, you're bonkers.