harmless wrote:
OK, my arguments too many times now have been basically that 1) PJ aren't terrific live anymore, and they get lyrics wrong, they get guitar notes wrong etc. 2) On evidence from the video (namely Ed shouting "FUCK" at Mike), it's possible that both happened in this performance, and 3) PJ aren't terrific live and their performances are frequently a thinner, less accurate version of what was on CD. A classic example of that is RVM, whose live version is not a patch on the original due to the fact that they are thrashing around on the chords, all three of them, and nobody is playing Mike's lead guitar parts which basically own the song. So yeah, a lot of people have more faith in PJ to reproduce anything live. For me, there's any number of possible points where this live version could've paled in comparison to what they've recorded.
Yes, but the version of RVM close to it's studio release are, I believe, pretty accurate to the studio rendition. Also, take Grievance from Letterman. Or even Mind Your Manners; other than it being a pretty raw sound, it hews relatively closely to the studio rendition. If the gap between Lightning Bolt in the studio vs. live is as small as the gap between Mind Your Manners, I think we can speak to how good a song we think it is without knowing the little touches there will be in the studio.
Well, sure. But I already gave it a 3/5. I'm thinking that most people who are arguing with what I'm saying have written it off as terrible. I would like to add one point to it, that's all. And I think the little touches may not be so little. At the risk of repeating myself, I just don't really enjoy hearing PJ live much anymore, and their performances are simply not reflective of the songs in the studio. Like, ever. Once they were, but you'd have to go back a fairly long way to find instances of well-played live versions which were even a patch on the originals (and you have, stating old versions of RM). A lot of people think that some of the S/T songs were better live, and I agreed at the time. Why would people say 'Song X is better live' if the live versions were really that close? They aren't. A live version can either improve upon or detract from a studio version. The differences may be subtle, but hey, I happen to think subtleties make all the difference. Subtleties can turn an OK song into a good or a great one.
I think the studio can make a good song great. But I've never heard a bad song get saved by great studio production. I don't know if I'd say Lightning Bolt is bad, but it's just not good enough for me to see how there's going to be some studio trickery that improves it to the point where it's great that didn't involve some changing of the song itself.
I think it's one thing to say "oh, but let's wait for the studio" when the issues are a sloppy performance, maybe a mistimed guitar solo, or the little things. It's another to wait for the studio if it's a bad chorus, a bad lyric, a bad melody, and/or a bad song.
Re: New Song: Lightning Bolt
Posted: Tue July 30, 2013 10:49 pm
by harmless
Thejambi wrote:
harmless wrote:
digster wrote:
harmless wrote:
OK, my arguments too many times now have been basically that 1) PJ aren't terrific live anymore, and they get lyrics wrong, they get guitar notes wrong etc. 2) On evidence from the video (namely Ed shouting "FUCK" at Mike), it's possible that both happened in this performance, and 3) PJ aren't terrific live and their performances are frequently a thinner, less accurate version of what was on CD. A classic example of that is RVM, whose live version is not a patch on the original due to the fact that they are thrashing around on the chords, all three of them, and nobody is playing Mike's lead guitar parts which basically own the song. So yeah, a lot of people have more faith in PJ to reproduce anything live. For me, there's any number of possible points where this live version could've paled in comparison to what they've recorded.
Yes, but the version of RVM close to it's studio release are, I believe, pretty accurate to the studio rendition. Also, take Grievance from Letterman. Or even Mind Your Manners; other than it being a pretty raw sound, it hews relatively closely to the studio rendition. If the gap between Lightning Bolt in the studio vs. live is as small as the gap between Mind Your Manners, I think we can speak to how good a song we think it is without knowing the little touches there will be in the studio.
Well, sure. But I already gave it a 3/5. I'm thinking that most people who are arguing with what I'm saying have written it off as terrible. I would like to add one point to it, that's all. And I think the little touches may not be so little. At the risk of repeating myself, I just don't really enjoy hearing PJ live much anymore, and their performances are simply not reflective of the songs in the studio. Like, ever. Once they were, but you'd have to go back a fairly long way to find instances of well-played live versions which were even a patch on the originals (and you have, stating old versions of RM). A lot of people think that some of the S/T songs were better live, and I agreed at the time. Why would people say 'Song X is better live' if the live versions were really that close? They aren't. A live version can either improve upon or detract from a studio version. The differences may be subtle, but hey, I happen to think subtleties make all the difference. Subtleties can turn an OK song into a good or a great one.
Team Harmless.
The only reason I find any ST song better live is because of how shitty that album sounds. I think the performances on the album are better than most live versions I've heard though.
Same. Honestly, I'm drunk now but I'm really struggling with the whole 'PJ are faithful to their studio versions live' premise. It's just blatantly false.
Re: New Song: Lightning Bolt
Posted: Tue July 30, 2013 10:51 pm
by harmless
digster wrote:
harmless wrote:
digster wrote:
harmless wrote:
OK, my arguments too many times now have been basically that 1) PJ aren't terrific live anymore, and they get lyrics wrong, they get guitar notes wrong etc. 2) On evidence from the video (namely Ed shouting "FUCK" at Mike), it's possible that both happened in this performance, and 3) PJ aren't terrific live and their performances are frequently a thinner, less accurate version of what was on CD. A classic example of that is RVM, whose live version is not a patch on the original due to the fact that they are thrashing around on the chords, all three of them, and nobody is playing Mike's lead guitar parts which basically own the song. So yeah, a lot of people have more faith in PJ to reproduce anything live. For me, there's any number of possible points where this live version could've paled in comparison to what they've recorded.
Yes, but the version of RVM close to it's studio release are, I believe, pretty accurate to the studio rendition. Also, take Grievance from Letterman. Or even Mind Your Manners; other than it being a pretty raw sound, it hews relatively closely to the studio rendition. If the gap between Lightning Bolt in the studio vs. live is as small as the gap between Mind Your Manners, I think we can speak to how good a song we think it is without knowing the little touches there will be in the studio.
Well, sure. But I already gave it a 3/5. I'm thinking that most people who are arguing with what I'm saying have written it off as terrible. I would like to add one point to it, that's all. And I think the little touches may not be so little. At the risk of repeating myself, I just don't really enjoy hearing PJ live much anymore, and their performances are simply not reflective of the songs in the studio. Like, ever. Once they were, but you'd have to go back a fairly long way to find instances of well-played live versions which were even a patch on the originals (and you have, stating old versions of RM). A lot of people think that some of the S/T songs were better live, and I agreed at the time. Why would people say 'Song X is better live' if the live versions were really that close? They aren't. A live version can either improve upon or detract from a studio version. The differences may be subtle, but hey, I happen to think subtleties make all the difference. Subtleties can turn an OK song into a good or a great one.
I think the studio can make a good song great. But I've never heard a bad song get saved by great studio production. I don't know if I'd say Lightning Bolt is bad, but it's just not good enough for me to see how there's going to be some studio trickery that improves it to the point where it's great that didn't involve some changing of the song itself.
I think it's one thing to say "oh, but let's wait for the studio" when the issues are a sloppy performance, maybe a mistimed guitar solo, or the little things. It's another to wait for the studio if it's a bad chorus, a bad lyric, a bad melody, and/or a bad song.
Well then I obviously think these songs have more potential than you do. I am nearly 100% sure that these songs contained flubs, that they weren't performed brilliantly, and that the studio will improve them slightly. I can't say these differences will improve the songs for those who hate them. But I don't hate them, so I start at a point from which I'll either be pleasantly surprised, or horrified.
Re: New Song: Lightning Bolt
Posted: Tue July 30, 2013 10:54 pm
by Jorge
harmless wrote:Same. Honestly, I'm drunk now but I'm really struggling with the whole 'PJ are faithful to their studio versions live' premise. It's just blatantly false.
I may be wrong, but I think being "faithful to the studio version" doesn't mean sounding exactly like the studio version. It just means performing a song that, for the most part, follows the structural blueprint laid out in the studio. I think this is true, at least with all the songs that were written after Matt joined the band. They don't really rearrange those songs that often or that dramatically-- except for playing them in a faster tempo, which I think just about every rock band does.
Re: New Song: Lightning Bolt
Posted: Tue July 30, 2013 10:56 pm
by digster
harmless wrote:
Thejambi wrote:
harmless wrote:
digster wrote:
harmless wrote:
OK, my arguments too many times now have been basically that 1) PJ aren't terrific live anymore, and they get lyrics wrong, they get guitar notes wrong etc. 2) On evidence from the video (namely Ed shouting "FUCK" at Mike), it's possible that both happened in this performance, and 3) PJ aren't terrific live and their performances are frequently a thinner, less accurate version of what was on CD. A classic example of that is RVM, whose live version is not a patch on the original due to the fact that they are thrashing around on the chords, all three of them, and nobody is playing Mike's lead guitar parts which basically own the song. So yeah, a lot of people have more faith in PJ to reproduce anything live. For me, there's any number of possible points where this live version could've paled in comparison to what they've recorded.
Yes, but the version of RVM close to it's studio release are, I believe, pretty accurate to the studio rendition. Also, take Grievance from Letterman. Or even Mind Your Manners; other than it being a pretty raw sound, it hews relatively closely to the studio rendition. If the gap between Lightning Bolt in the studio vs. live is as small as the gap between Mind Your Manners, I think we can speak to how good a song we think it is without knowing the little touches there will be in the studio.
Well, sure. But I already gave it a 3/5. I'm thinking that most people who are arguing with what I'm saying have written it off as terrible. I would like to add one point to it, that's all. And I think the little touches may not be so little. At the risk of repeating myself, I just don't really enjoy hearing PJ live much anymore, and their performances are simply not reflective of the songs in the studio. Like, ever. Once they were, but you'd have to go back a fairly long way to find instances of well-played live versions which were even a patch on the originals (and you have, stating old versions of RM). A lot of people think that some of the S/T songs were better live, and I agreed at the time. Why would people say 'Song X is better live' if the live versions were really that close? They aren't. A live version can either improve upon or detract from a studio version. The differences may be subtle, but hey, I happen to think subtleties make all the difference. Subtleties can turn an OK song into a good or a great one.
Team Harmless.
The only reason I find any ST song better live is because of how shitty that album sounds. I think the performances on the album are better than most live versions I've heard though.
Same. Honestly, I'm drunk now but I'm really struggling with the whole 'PJ are faithful to their studio versions live' premise. It's just blatantly false.
In comparison to re-creating a studio performance note-for-note? No, they are not faithful. However, in comparison to other bands or acts that will completely change arrangements, melodies, instrumentation, etc. they are pretty faithful to what is on their studio records.
Re: New Song: Lightning Bolt
Posted: Tue July 30, 2013 10:58 pm
by LetMeSleep
harmless wrote:Same. Honestly, I'm drunk now but I'm really struggling with the whole 'PJ are faithful to their studio versions live' premise. It's just blatantly false.
Maybe I'm approaching your comments from an incorrect POV. Take All Along the Watchtower. Dylan now plays it (or since 2000) more like the Hendrix version than the original studio version. I would say that he is not being faithful to his studio version. PJ pretty much always play it close to the studio version, within the limitations of a live setting.
Where PJ change it (say the intro of Porch or the incarnation of InMyTree) I can whole heartedly agree. But in most cases they don't drift too far away. And often when they do stray it isn't too successful (I'm thinking New Jeremy).
edit: Also, Jorge and Digster may have worded it better than I.
Re: New Song: Lightning Bolt
Posted: Tue July 30, 2013 10:59 pm
by harmless
theplatypus wrote:
harmless wrote:Same. Honestly, I'm drunk now but I'm really struggling with the whole 'PJ are faithful to their studio versions live' premise. It's just blatantly false.
I may be wrong, but I think being "faithful to the studio version" doesn't mean sounding exactly like the studio version. It just means performing a song that, for the most part, follows the structural blueprint laid out in the studio. I think this is true, at least with all the songs that were written after Matt joined the band. They don't really rearrange those songs that often or that dramatically-- except for playing them in a faster tempo, which I think just about every rock band does.
Fair comments. I don't need the song to be structurally different. But I am interested in the texture and colour (if any) that the studio adds. A lot of Binaural's charm is about atmosphere and instrumentation added in the studio. Something like Breakerfall could have conceivably sounded terrible in a debuted live version (and I hated it when I first heard it). Plus, MYM is vastly improved by the vocal performance and layering.
Re: New Song: Lightning Bolt
Posted: Tue July 30, 2013 11:00 pm
by stupidmop
digster wrote:
harmless wrote:
digster wrote:
harmless wrote:
OK, my arguments too many times now have been basically that 1) PJ aren't terrific live anymore, and they get lyrics wrong, they get guitar notes wrong etc. 2) On evidence from the video (namely Ed shouting "FUCK" at Mike), it's possible that both happened in this performance, and 3) PJ aren't terrific live and their performances are frequently a thinner, less accurate version of what was on CD. A classic example of that is RVM, whose live version is not a patch on the original due to the fact that they are thrashing around on the chords, all three of them, and nobody is playing Mike's lead guitar parts which basically own the song. So yeah, a lot of people have more faith in PJ to reproduce anything live. For me, there's any number of possible points where this live version could've paled in comparison to what they've recorded.
Yes, but the version of RVM close to it's studio release are, I believe, pretty accurate to the studio rendition. Also, take Grievance from Letterman. Or even Mind Your Manners; other than it being a pretty raw sound, it hews relatively closely to the studio rendition. If the gap between Lightning Bolt in the studio vs. live is as small as the gap between Mind Your Manners, I think we can speak to how good a song we think it is without knowing the little touches there will be in the studio.
Well, sure. But I already gave it a 3/5. I'm thinking that most people who are arguing with what I'm saying have written it off as terrible. I would like to add one point to it, that's all. And I think the little touches may not be so little. At the risk of repeating myself, I just don't really enjoy hearing PJ live much anymore, and their performances are simply not reflective of the songs in the studio. Like, ever. Once they were, but you'd have to go back a fairly long way to find instances of well-played live versions which were even a patch on the originals (and you have, stating old versions of RM). A lot of people think that some of the S/T songs were better live, and I agreed at the time. Why would people say 'Song X is better live' if the live versions were really that close? They aren't. A live version can either improve upon or detract from a studio version. The differences may be subtle, but hey, I happen to think subtleties make all the difference. Subtleties can turn an OK song into a good or a great one.
I think the studio can make a good song great. But I've never heard a bad song get saved by great studio production. I don't know if I'd say Lightning Bolt is bad, but it's just not good enough for me to see how there's going to be some studio trickery that improves it to the point where it's great that didn't involve some changing of the song itself.
I think it's one thing to say "oh, but let's wait for the studio" when the issues are a sloppy performance, maybe a mistimed guitar solo, or the little things. It's another to wait for the studio if it's a bad chorus, a bad lyric, a bad melody, and/or a bad song.
Why do you have a problem with dreaming the impossible dream, with HOPE? I bet you tell kids Santa isn't real and Elvis died on the toilet too.
Re: New Song: Lightning Bolt
Posted: Tue July 30, 2013 11:01 pm
by harmless
digster wrote:
harmless wrote:
Thejambi wrote:
harmless wrote:
digster wrote:
harmless wrote:
OK, my arguments too many times now have been basically that 1) PJ aren't terrific live anymore, and they get lyrics wrong, they get guitar notes wrong etc. 2) On evidence from the video (namely Ed shouting "FUCK" at Mike), it's possible that both happened in this performance, and 3) PJ aren't terrific live and their performances are frequently a thinner, less accurate version of what was on CD. A classic example of that is RVM, whose live version is not a patch on the original due to the fact that they are thrashing around on the chords, all three of them, and nobody is playing Mike's lead guitar parts which basically own the song. So yeah, a lot of people have more faith in PJ to reproduce anything live. For me, there's any number of possible points where this live version could've paled in comparison to what they've recorded.
Yes, but the version of RVM close to it's studio release are, I believe, pretty accurate to the studio rendition. Also, take Grievance from Letterman. Or even Mind Your Manners; other than it being a pretty raw sound, it hews relatively closely to the studio rendition. If the gap between Lightning Bolt in the studio vs. live is as small as the gap between Mind Your Manners, I think we can speak to how good a song we think it is without knowing the little touches there will be in the studio.
Well, sure. But I already gave it a 3/5. I'm thinking that most people who are arguing with what I'm saying have written it off as terrible. I would like to add one point to it, that's all. And I think the little touches may not be so little. At the risk of repeating myself, I just don't really enjoy hearing PJ live much anymore, and their performances are simply not reflective of the songs in the studio. Like, ever. Once they were, but you'd have to go back a fairly long way to find instances of well-played live versions which were even a patch on the originals (and you have, stating old versions of RM). A lot of people think that some of the S/T songs were better live, and I agreed at the time. Why would people say 'Song X is better live' if the live versions were really that close? They aren't. A live version can either improve upon or detract from a studio version. The differences may be subtle, but hey, I happen to think subtleties make all the difference. Subtleties can turn an OK song into a good or a great one.
Team Harmless.
The only reason I find any ST song better live is because of how shitty that album sounds. I think the performances on the album are better than most live versions I've heard though.
Same. Honestly, I'm drunk now but I'm really struggling with the whole 'PJ are faithful to their studio versions live' premise. It's just blatantly false.
In comparison to re-creating a studio performance note-for-note? No, they are not faithful. However, in comparison to other bands or acts that will completely change arrangements, melodies, instrumentation, etc. they are pretty faithful to what is on their studio records.
That may be true. It is a spectrum and they don't go out of their way to perform the songs differently. But I find them clumsy and scratchy, and how much of these performances is 'accurate' is literally anyone's guess. In my humble opinion. Plus, any nuances and atmosphere added by instrumentation and studio effects would not have been replicated live.
Re: New Song: Lightning Bolt
Posted: Tue July 30, 2013 11:04 pm
by harmless
LetMeSleep wrote:
harmless wrote:Same. Honestly, I'm drunk now but I'm really struggling with the whole 'PJ are faithful to their studio versions live' premise. It's just blatantly false.
Maybe I'm approaching your comments from an incorrect POV. Take All Along the Watchtower. Dylan now plays it (or since 2000) more like the Hendrix version than the original studio version. I would say that he is not being faithful to his studio version. PJ pretty much always play it close to the studio version, within the limitations of a live setting.
Where PJ change it (say the intro of Porch or the incarnation of InMyTree) I can whole heartedly agree. But in most cases they don't drift too far away. And often when they do stray it isn't too successful (I'm thinking New Jeremy).
edit: Also, Jorge and Digster may have worded it better than I.
I'll reiterate: if you dislike these songs structurally or conceptually, you're guaranteed to also be disappointed with the studio versions. But I don't. To me, they're all voted at least 'OK'. Hearing the songs crisply and clearly, with all the right sounds (Matt's drums vary live *so much* it's not even funny) will be very likely to render the song either vastly improved, or completely unlistenable. I am interested in these live versions but by no means do I think I've heard what I will hear eventually.
Re: New Song: Lightning Bolt
Posted: Tue July 30, 2013 11:06 pm
by Jorge
harmless wrote:
That may be true. It is a spectrum and they don't go out of their way to perform the songs differently. But I find them clumsy and scratchy, and how much of these performances is 'accurate' is literally anyone's guess. In my humble opinion. Plus, any nuances and atmosphere added by instrumentation and studio effects would not have been replicated live.
Re: New Song: Lightning Bolt
Posted: Tue July 30, 2013 11:09 pm
by harmless
theplatypus wrote:
harmless wrote:
That may be true. It is a spectrum and they don't go out of their way to perform the songs differently. But I find them clumsy and scratchy, and how much of these performances is 'accurate' is literally anyone's guess. In my humble opinion. Plus, any nuances and atmosphere added by instrumentation and studio effects would not have been replicated live.
I'm not sure how much longer I can continue being a good sport for you, Jorge.
Re: New Song: Lightning Bolt
Posted: Tue July 30, 2013 11:09 pm
by Jorge
Haha, come on. It's a live version. It's funny and apropos.
Re: New Song: Lightning Bolt
Posted: Tue July 30, 2013 11:10 pm
by stip
i agree, harmless. the texture and depth of a song is often lost, and so I almost always prefer studio versions. If I am there live it gets replaced by the energy of the show, which is what makes live music amazing. But the idea of preferring to listen to live bootlegs over studio songs is foreign to me.
Re: New Song: Lightning Bolt
Posted: Tue July 30, 2013 11:11 pm
by harmless
To be fair, they were good live. Better than latter day PJ.
Re: New Song: Lightning Bolt
Posted: Tue July 30, 2013 11:11 pm
by harmless
stip wrote:i agree, harmless. the texture and depth of a song is often lost, and so I almost always prefer studio versions. If I am there live it gets replaced by the energy of the show, which is what makes live music amazing. But the idea of preferring to listen to live bootlegs over studio songs is foreign to me.
Re: New Song: Lightning Bolt
Posted: Tue July 30, 2013 11:12 pm
by stip
Re: New Song: Lightning Bolt
Posted: Tue July 30, 2013 11:14 pm
by harmless
Sarah Harmless and I think that Jorge has 7 different versions of 2 Princes live in his bookmarks, waiting for the right moment to piss Harmless off.
Re: New Song: Lightning Bolt
Posted: Tue July 30, 2013 11:15 pm
by Thejambi
I only used to enjoy them better live because Ed would take his vocals to the aggressive limits. I don't much care for Ed nowadays or the overall equipment tone. Benaroya is probably the only live disc I listen to on a somewhat regular basis. That cd is amazing.
Re: New Song: Lightning Bolt
Posted: Tue July 30, 2013 11:16 pm
by Jorge
harmless wrote:Sarah Harmless and I think that Jorge has 7 different versions of 2 Princes live in his bookmarks, waiting for the right moment to piss Harmless off.
