Red Mosquito

offhegoes 38 wrote:

bodysnatcher wrote:

harmless wrote:

hlniv wrote:

Juvenal wrote:Future Days and Let The Records Play are still wank.

ftfy

I'm still confused about how you could say SBM 'doesn't belong', and yet FD and LTRP are also really bad. Isn't the jury out about which of these songs 'doesn't belong', especially if SBM is the best one?

Sleeping By Myself is Longing To Belong.

And isn't at the same time.

what a great post, wanna fuck??

tl;dr

stip wrote:keep them all!

Definitely

harmless wrote:

hlniv wrote:

Juvenal wrote:Future Days and Let The Records Play are still wank.

ftfy

I'm still confused about how you could say SBM 'doesn't belong', and yet FD and LTRP are also really bad. Isn't the jury out about which of these songs 'doesn't belong', especially if SBM is the best one?

I will try to eliminate your confusion with a more thorough explanation-

Both Future Days and Let The Records Play were honest attempts by the band to create something in the course of an album. That cannot be said for SBM.

LTRP was born from a little stone riff (and a good one at that), and a conscious decision was made to blues the shit out of it. Fine, there are moments in the song where I think they achieve the connection between blues and the truest of PJ rock, but it's fleeting. The intro lick, the bridge, the opportunity for a scorching Mike solo (re: Worcester 1 played behind his head). Taken as a whole, the tune just never achieves its goals, ends up just being PJ plays the blues. There is a total lack of creative application during the verses and chorus. It fits on the album, as I can't imagine it being any where else except here or on the cutting room floor. It's just that it's not very good. Something can fit, but not be very good. That is the case with LTRP. I might skip it, but it certainly feels like a part of the album.

Future Days is a potentially beautiful song. Beauty in the vein of a number of well done slow ballads this band has put out. I understand the goal with the tune, the feeling that it is intended to convey and how it creates closure to the album. Hell, that's the whole point of the damn piano bookends. In this case, however, poor instrumental choices doom the song. Even without the crap piano intro/outro, Ed's guitar is flat, the bridge throws way too much at you sonically for such a stripped tune, everything just sucks the beauty right out of the melody. Again, this song feels like part of the album, it certainly has a place that makes sense, but ultimately just underachieves.

Sleeping By Myself is the total opposite. I really do like it. But it feels like a bright blue sapphire in a sea of gold and silver. It doesn't belong. It stands out in just about every performance, percussion, vocals/harmonies, even the guitars have a unique feel compared to every other song on the album. At many levels, it really feels like a different artist, even. Parachutes on S/T was different, yes, it was an outlier in terms of melody and structure. But, it fit within that album, because there was a record around it that felt connected to it. Not with SBM, it feels to me to be quite disconnected. It would be perfect as a xmas single or b-side, and it would be one of the good ones, sought out for rare setlist appearances, etc.. There's a reason it hasn't been played on tour yet, it just doesn't mesh with most of the rest of the catalog, including the album on which it exists.

As far as the "jury being out", I'd say my opinions have pretty well been formed on this album at this point, and I bet that's the case for most everyone who reads this. The only thing that could significantly alter what i think about this record or individual tracks on the record now would be a prolonged (many months or years) period of it sitting on a shelf and having no listens whatsoever.

To summarize:

SBM : good song, bad decision = doesn't fit
LTRP : good concept, poor execution = fits but fails
FD : good songwriting/melody, horrible instrumentation/production = fits but fails

hlniv wrote:

harmless wrote:

hlniv wrote:

Juvenal wrote:Future Days and Let The Records Play are still wank.

ftfy

I'm still confused about how you could say SBM 'doesn't belong', and yet FD and LTRP are also really bad. Isn't the jury out about which of these songs 'doesn't belong', especially if SBM is the best one?

I will try to eliminate your confusion with a more thorough explanation-

Both Future Days and Let The Records Play were honest attempts by the band to create something in the course of an album. That cannot be said for SBM.

LTRP was born from a little stone riff (and a good one at that), and a conscious decision was made to blues the shit out of it. Fine, there are moments in the song where I think they achieve the connection between blues and the truest of PJ rock, but it's fleeting. The intro lick, the bridge, the opportunity for a scorching Mike solo (re: Worcester 1 played behind his head). Taken as a whole, the tune just never achieves its goals, ends up just being PJ plays the blues. There is a total lack of creative application during the verses and chorus. It fits on the album, as I can't imagine it being any where else except here or on the cutting room floor. It's just that it's not very good. Something can fit, but not be very good. That is the case with LTRP. I might skip it, but it certainly feels like a part of the album.

Future Days is a potentially beautiful song. Beauty in the vein of a number of well done slow ballads this band has put out. I understand the goal with the tune, the feeling that it is intended to convey and how it creates closure to the album. Hell, that's the whole point of the damn piano bookends. In this case, however, poor instrumental choices doom the song. Even without the crap piano intro/outro, Ed's guitar is flat, the bridge throws way too much at you sonically for such a stripped tune, everything just sucks the beauty right out of the melody. Again, this song feels like part of the album, it certainly has a place that makes sense, but ultimately just underachieves.

Sleeping By Myself is the total opposite. I really do like it. But it feels like a bright blue sapphire in a sea of gold and silver. It doesn't belong. It stands out in just about every performance, percussion, vocals/harmonies, even the guitars have a unique feel compared to every other song on the album. At many levels, it really feels like a different artist, even. Parachutes on S/T was different, yes, it was an outlier in terms of melody and structure. But, it fit within that album, because there was a record around it that felt connected to it. Not with SBM, it feels to me to be quite disconnected. It would be perfect as a xmas single or b-side, and it would be one of the good ones, sought out for rare setlist appearances, etc.. There's a reason it hasn't been played on tour yet, it just doesn't mesh with most of the rest of the catalog, including the album on which it exists.

As far as the "jury being out", I'd say my opinions have pretty well been formed on this album at this point, and I bet that's the case for most everyone who reads this. The only thing that could significantly alter what i think about this record or individual tracks on the record now would be a prolonged (many months or years) period of it sitting on a shelf and having no listens whatsoever.

To summarize:

SBM : good song, bad decision = doesn't fit
LTRP : good concept, poor execution = fits but fails
FD : good songwriting/melody, horrible instrumentation/production = fits but fails

Woah, that's probably more than my question deserved. Good post.

harmless wrote:

hlniv wrote:

harmless wrote:

hlniv wrote:

Juvenal wrote:Future Days and Let The Records Play are still wank.

ftfy

I'm still confused about how you could say SBM 'doesn't belong', and yet FD and LTRP are also really bad. Isn't the jury out about which of these songs 'doesn't belong', especially if SBM is the best one?

I will try to eliminate your confusion with a more thorough explanation-

Both Future Days and Let The Records Play were honest attempts by the band to create something in the course of an album. That cannot be said for SBM.

LTRP was born from a little stone riff (and a good one at that), and a conscious decision was made to blues the shit out of it. Fine, there are moments in the song where I think they achieve the connection between blues and the truest of PJ rock, but it's fleeting. The intro lick, the bridge, the opportunity for a scorching Mike solo (re: Worcester 1 played behind his head). Taken as a whole, the tune just never achieves its goals, ends up just being PJ plays the blues. There is a total lack of creative application during the verses and chorus. It fits on the album, as I can't imagine it being any where else except here or on the cutting room floor. It's just that it's not very good. Something can fit, but not be very good. That is the case with LTRP. I might skip it, but it certainly feels like a part of the album.

Future Days is a potentially beautiful song. Beauty in the vein of a number of well done slow ballads this band has put out. I understand the goal with the tune, the feeling that it is intended to convey and how it creates closure to the album. Hell, that's the whole point of the damn piano bookends. In this case, however, poor instrumental choices doom the song. Even without the crap piano intro/outro, Ed's guitar is flat, the bridge throws way too much at you sonically for such a stripped tune, everything just sucks the beauty right out of the melody. Again, this song feels like part of the album, it certainly has a place that makes sense, but ultimately just underachieves.

Sleeping By Myself is the total opposite. I really do like it. But it feels like a bright blue sapphire in a sea of gold and silver. It doesn't belong. It stands out in just about every performance, percussion, vocals/harmonies, even the guitars have a unique feel compared to every other song on the album. At many levels, it really feels like a different artist, even. Parachutes on S/T was different, yes, it was an outlier in terms of melody and structure. But, it fit within that album, because there was a record around it that felt connected to it. Not with SBM, it feels to me to be quite disconnected. It would be perfect as a xmas single or b-side, and it would be one of the good ones, sought out for rare setlist appearances, etc.. There's a reason it hasn't been played on tour yet, it just doesn't mesh with most of the rest of the catalog, including the album on which it exists.

As far as the "jury being out", I'd say my opinions have pretty well been formed on this album at this point, and I bet that's the case for most everyone who reads this. The only thing that could significantly alter what i think about this record or individual tracks on the record now would be a prolonged (many months or years) period of it sitting on a shelf and having no listens whatsoever.

To summarize:

SBM : good song, bad decision = doesn't fit
LTRP : good concept, poor execution = fits but fails
FD : good songwriting/melody, horrible instrumentation/production = fits but fails

Woah, that's probably more than my question deserved. Good post.

There was bourbon involved

hlniv wrote:

harmless wrote:

hlniv wrote:

harmless wrote:

hlniv wrote:

Juvenal wrote:Future Days and Let The Records Play are still wank.

ftfy

I'm still confused about how you could say SBM 'doesn't belong', and yet FD and LTRP are also really bad. Isn't the jury out about which of these songs 'doesn't belong', especially if SBM is the best one?

I will try to eliminate your confusion with a more thorough explanation-

Both Future Days and Let The Records Play were honest attempts by the band to create something in the course of an album. That cannot be said for SBM.

LTRP was born from a little stone riff (and a good one at that), and a conscious decision was made to blues the shit out of it. Fine, there are moments in the song where I think they achieve the connection between blues and the truest of PJ rock, but it's fleeting. The intro lick, the bridge, the opportunity for a scorching Mike solo (re: Worcester 1 played behind his head). Taken as a whole, the tune just never achieves its goals, ends up just being PJ plays the blues. There is a total lack of creative application during the verses and chorus. It fits on the album, as I can't imagine it being any where else except here or on the cutting room floor. It's just that it's not very good. Something can fit, but not be very good. That is the case with LTRP. I might skip it, but it certainly feels like a part of the album.

Future Days is a potentially beautiful song. Beauty in the vein of a number of well done slow ballads this band has put out. I understand the goal with the tune, the feeling that it is intended to convey and how it creates closure to the album. Hell, that's the whole point of the damn piano bookends. In this case, however, poor instrumental choices doom the song. Even without the crap piano intro/outro, Ed's guitar is flat, the bridge throws way too much at you sonically for such a stripped tune, everything just sucks the beauty right out of the melody. Again, this song feels like part of the album, it certainly has a place that makes sense, but ultimately just underachieves.

Sleeping By Myself is the total opposite. I really do like it. But it feels like a bright blue sapphire in a sea of gold and silver. It doesn't belong. It stands out in just about every performance, percussion, vocals/harmonies, even the guitars have a unique feel compared to every other song on the album. At many levels, it really feels like a different artist, even. Parachutes on S/T was different, yes, it was an outlier in terms of melody and structure. But, it fit within that album, because there was a record around it that felt connected to it. Not with SBM, it feels to me to be quite disconnected. It would be perfect as a xmas single or b-side, and it would be one of the good ones, sought out for rare setlist appearances, etc.. There's a reason it hasn't been played on tour yet, it just doesn't mesh with most of the rest of the catalog, including the album on which it exists.

As far as the "jury being out", I'd say my opinions have pretty well been formed on this album at this point, and I bet that's the case for most everyone who reads this. The only thing that could significantly alter what i think about this record or individual tracks on the record now would be a prolonged (many months or years) period of it sitting on a shelf and having no listens whatsoever.

To summarize:

SBM : good song, bad decision = doesn't fit
LTRP : good concept, poor execution = fits but fails
FD : good songwriting/melody, horrible instrumentation/production = fits but fails

Woah, that's probably more than my question deserved. Good post.

There was bourbon involved

What kind of bourbon?

I agree with you BTW...SBM is the best of those three songs, but it shouldn't be on the album.

Did we ever find out what that vine song was?

All that went thorugh my head reading that was "Its already been released on ukulele songs, i dont like that, it shouldnt be here"

I'm kind of glad it's on the album because it's a good song. That's as simple or as complicated as it needs to be at this point in the PJ timeline. It doesn't suck, it can go on the album. The album and uke versions are different enough that they both deserve to exist.

I'm liking the album more and more. Which is kind of surprising how much I hate the production on this. I agree with Chud that this is the worst produced record in their career but there are enough varying moods throughout the course of the album that I find myself being on some sort of journey that has been missing the past couple records. I seek out infallible, lightning bolt, my fathers son, yellow moon and pendulum on a regular basis. I've come around to Future Days only because Ed sounds wonderful. I in no way hold this up to his other solo tracks throughout the career but he sounds wonderful so I can get through the horrible pianos and shitty Wal-Mart acoustic guitar. The Bridge on Yellow Moon is one of their tops.

Strat wrote:I'm liking the album more and more. Which is kind of surprising how much I hate the production on this. I agree with Chud that this is the worst produced record in their career but there are enough varying moods throughout the course of the album that I find myself being on some sort of journey that has been missing the past couple records. I seek out infallible, lightning bolt, my fathers son, yellow moon and pendulum on a regular basis. I've come around to Future Days only because Ed sounds wonderful. I in no way hold this up to his other solo tracks throughout the career but he sounds wonderful so I can get through the horrible pianos and shitty Wal-Mart acoustic guitar. The Bridge on Yellow Moon is one of their tops.

On the "worst produced record of their career" thing, I'm not sure. I mean, if S/T is both really bland and thin and impossible to listen to because of how harsh and grating and brickwalled it is, and if Backspacer sounds so thin and tinny, I might prefer this to both of them. It's much more well-rounded and "thick" in sound. On the whole, the bass drums have a proper thump to them, and the bass guitar, well you can hear it. What is missing is some "middle", some guitars. But what it has by way of layering is quite nice, and, apart from "The Fixer", much better than Backspacer. IMHO.

those other two, still sounded like Pearl Jam though. This sounds like a blatant attempt at polishing up the band to make them more accessible. BOB probably just hates that the songs themselves are not, mostly, accessible to the general public.

harmless wrote:I'm kind of glad it's on the album because it's a good song. That's as simple or as complicated as it needs to be at this point in the PJ timeline. It doesn't suck, it can go on the album. The album and uke versions are different enough that they both deserve to exist.

I agree with all of that. And the only reason to complain would be if it kicked something else off the album, which it didn't, so its just something extra included

Yeah, that's a good point actually Strat; I don't dislike *the sound*, but it's not characteristically Pearl Jam at all.

Its probably different for every situation, but does a producer ever get paid based off of how much an album sells? I would assume they get a set amount regardless, and if they do then it makes no since for BOB to care if the songs are radio friendly or not, right?

Dr. Van Nostrand wrote:Its probably different for every situation, but does a producer ever get paid based off of how much an album sells? I would assume they get a set amount regardless, and if they do then it makes no since for BOB to care if the songs are radio friendly or not, right?

I'm assuming it does a lot of good for BoB's reputation and career if an album he's produced blows up commercially. I'm assuming that he cares more about this than some arbitrary notion of "what Pearl Jam (is supposed to) sound like." Other producers would find that much more important.

harmless wrote:

Dr. Van Nostrand wrote:Its probably different for every situation, but does a producer ever get paid based off of how much an album sells? I would assume they get a set amount regardless, and if they do then it makes no since for BOB to care if the songs are radio friendly or not, right?

I'm assuming it does a lot of good for BoB's reputation and career if an album he's produced blows up commercially. I'm assuming that he cares more about this than some arbitrary notion of "what Pearl Jam (is supposed to) sound like." Other producers would find that much more important.

I can see that, but its not like he is a new commer, he has a pretty good reputation already ( except among pj message board users) so it doesn't seem necessary, but i do understand it

Dr. Van Nostrand wrote:

harmless wrote:

Dr. Van Nostrand wrote:Its probably different for every situation, but does a producer ever get paid based off of how much an album sells? I would assume they get a set amount regardless, and if they do then it makes no since for BOB to care if the songs are radio friendly or not, right?

I'm assuming it does a lot of good for BoB's reputation and career if an album he's produced blows up commercially. I'm assuming that he cares more about this than some arbitrary notion of "what Pearl Jam (is supposed to) sound like." Other producers would find that much more important.

I can see that, but its not like he is a new commer, he has a pretty good reputation already ( except among pj message board users) so it doesn't seem necessary, but i do understand it

It's mostly that his ego is just so big he can't help it.

Strat wrote:

Dr. Van Nostrand wrote:

harmless wrote:

Dr. Van Nostrand wrote:Its probably different for every situation, but does a producer ever get paid based off of how much an album sells? I would assume they get a set amount regardless, and if they do then it makes no since for BOB to care if the songs are radio friendly or not, right?

I'm assuming it does a lot of good for BoB's reputation and career if an album he's produced blows up commercially. I'm assuming that he cares more about this than some arbitrary notion of "what Pearl Jam (is supposed to) sound like." Other producers would find that much more important.

I can see that, but its not like he is a new commer, he has a pretty good reputation already ( except among pj message board users) so it doesn't seem necessary, but i do understand it

It's mostly that his ego is just so big he can't help it.

I really hope they use someone else for the next album. I don't have any real issues with the production on this album, but i hate his influence over the direction of the band

Strat wrote:

Dr. Van Nostrand wrote:

harmless wrote:

Dr. Van Nostrand wrote:Its probably different for every situation, but does a producer ever get paid based off of how much an album sells? I would assume they get a set amount regardless, and if they do then it makes no since for BOB to care if the songs are radio friendly or not, right?

I'm assuming it does a lot of good for BoB's reputation and career if an album he's produced blows up commercially. I'm assuming that he cares more about this than some arbitrary notion of "what Pearl Jam (is supposed to) sound like." Other producers would find that much more important.

I can see that, but its not like he is a new commer, he has a pretty good reputation already ( except among pj message board users) so it doesn't seem necessary, but i do understand it

It's mostly that his ego is just so big he can't help it.

And he's changed a lot since the old days. What he wants now is different to what he wanted then, which was for the band to escape the recording process with some modicum of integrity, in spite of his tastes. Now he doesn't give a shit; pour that syrup on those waffles, baby.

I've just thought again about our production convo by the way. I'm not sure Backspacer or S/T *does* "sound like Pearl Jam." Or at least, I didn't think they sounded like Pearl Jam at all when they first came out. I only do now because once again, this new one doesn't.

Dr. Van Nostrand wrote:

Strat wrote:

Dr. Van Nostrand wrote:

harmless wrote:

Dr. Van Nostrand wrote:Its probably different for every situation, but does a producer ever get paid based off of how much an album sells? I would assume they get a set amount regardless, and if they do then it makes no since for BOB to care if the songs are radio friendly or not, right?

I'm assuming it does a lot of good for BoB's reputation and career if an album he's produced blows up commercially. I'm assuming that he cares more about this than some arbitrary notion of "what Pearl Jam (is supposed to) sound like." Other producers would find that much more important.

I can see that, but its not like he is a new commer, he has a pretty good reputation already ( except among pj message board users) so it doesn't seem necessary, but i do understand it

It's mostly that his ego is just so big he can't help it.

I really hope they use someone else for the next album. I don't have any real issues with the production on this album, but i hate his influence over the direction of the band