Red Mosquito

dudes everything about those books sound made up or just plain bonkers.

VinylGuy wrote:dudes everything about those books sound made up or just plain bonkers.

Which is why I'm so impressed the movies are so great. Denis has a great way of narrowing the focus on essentials and minimizing the batshit.

tree_ wrote:

The Argonaut wrote:"I can see the future" is a super lame fictional power, because it is hard for the reader/viewer to question. He can see the future. It sucks

It's good entertainment, with all the internal struggle of the characters trying to do the right thing for the future by doing horrible things in the present. I just can't understand why Denis and Herbert insist Paul is a bad guy. He's given shitty options in every direction and chooses the best way forward, shitty as it may be.

When someone says they can see the future, they are generally a prophet with followers. This is no different than Paul. But not every belief system is going to believe one guy just because he says so. Paul is destroying millions of lives because he says he can see the future. Why should people of other faiths believe and just let him do it? Herbert does a fantastic job of this prophetic portrayal in the movies, taking it directly from humankind on earth. If some random dude came up to you today and said if you don't believe in him, you'll go to a magical pit of fire forever when you die, but if you believe in this random dude, you'll go to a magical paradise, would you just follow him and think he is a good guy? Why would the Harkkonen or Chani and the other non-believers do that?

I've never been crazy about stories about a god doing godlike things tbh. I mostly just like the worldbuilding of Dune. The characters are pretty dull.

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

tree_ wrote:

The Argonaut wrote:"I can see the future" is a super lame fictional power, because it is hard for the reader/viewer to question. He can see the future. It sucks

It's good entertainment, with all the internal struggle of the characters trying to do the right thing for the future by doing horrible things in the present. I just can't understand why Denis and Herbert insist Paul is a bad guy. He's given shitty options in every direction and chooses the best way forward, shitty as it may be.

When someone says they can see the future, they are generally a prophet with followers. This is no different than Paul. But not every belief system is going to believe one guy just because he says so. Paul is destroying millions of lives because he says he can see the future. Why should people of other faiths believe and just let him do it? Herbert does a fantastic job of this prophetic portrayal in the movies, taking it directly from humankind on earth. If some random dude came up to you today and said if you don't believe in him, you'll go to a magical pit of fire forever when you die, but if you believe in this random dude, you'll go to a magical paradise, would you just follow him and think he is a good guy? Why would the Harkkonen or Chani and the other non-believers do that?

But the point I'm making is he can actually see the future and people are wrong not to follow him. In this make believe universe there is prescience, and he basically is a god, and his kid is even more of one. In our world, it doesn't apply and we should never trust someone who claims to be prescient unless they can absolutely prove it somehow, which they can't. Paul can. This story may have been more effective if Paul was a fraud the whole time.

Ethics with Tree: Strap Me To The Trolley Tracks

tree_ wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

tree_ wrote:

The Argonaut wrote:"I can see the future" is a super lame fictional power, because it is hard for the reader/viewer to question. He can see the future. It sucks

It's good entertainment, with all the internal struggle of the characters trying to do the right thing for the future by doing horrible things in the present. I just can't understand why Denis and Herbert insist Paul is a bad guy. He's given shitty options in every direction and chooses the best way forward, shitty as it may be.

When someone says they can see the future, they are generally a prophet with followers. This is no different than Paul. But not every belief system is going to believe one guy just because he says so. Paul is destroying millions of lives because he says he can see the future. Why should people of other faiths believe and just let him do it? Herbert does a fantastic job of this prophetic portrayal in the movies, taking it directly from humankind on earth. If some random dude came up to you today and said if you don't believe in him, you'll go to a magical pit of fire forever when you die, but if you believe in this random dude, you'll go to a magical paradise, would you just follow him and think he is a good guy? Why would the Harkkonen or Chani and the other non-believers do that?

But the point I'm making is he can actually see the future and people are wrong not to follow him. In this make believe universe there is prescience, and he basically is a god, and his kid is even more of one. In our world, it doesn't apply and we should never trust someone who claims to be prescient unless they can absolutely prove it somehow, which they can't. Paul can. This story may have been more effective if Paul was a fraud the whole time.

But how do they know he can? Because he says so?

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

tree_ wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

tree_ wrote:

The Argonaut wrote:"I can see the future" is a super lame fictional power, because it is hard for the reader/viewer to question. He can see the future. It sucks

It's good entertainment, with all the internal struggle of the characters trying to do the right thing for the future by doing horrible things in the present. I just can't understand why Denis and Herbert insist Paul is a bad guy. He's given shitty options in every direction and chooses the best way forward, shitty as it may be.

When someone says they can see the future, they are generally a prophet with followers. This is no different than Paul. But not every belief system is going to believe one guy just because he says so. Paul is destroying millions of lives because he says he can see the future. Why should people of other faiths believe and just let him do it? Herbert does a fantastic job of this prophetic portrayal in the movies, taking it directly from humankind on earth. If some random dude came up to you today and said if you don't believe in him, you'll go to a magical pit of fire forever when you die, but if you believe in this random dude, you'll go to a magical paradise, would you just follow him and think he is a good guy? Why would the Harkkonen or Chani and the other non-believers do that?

But the point I'm making is he can actually see the future and people are wrong not to follow him. In this make believe universe there is prescience, and he basically is a god, and his kid is even more of one. In our world, it doesn't apply and we should never trust someone who claims to be prescient unless they can absolutely prove it somehow, which they can't. Paul can. This story may have been more effective if Paul was a fraud the whole time.

But how do they know he can? Because he says so?

He actually has that power. It's in the book. He's a super human; a Kwisatz Haderach. The people who believe in him and follow him are actually correct, with or without proof. But they do know he drank the worm piss and survived, and the worm piss gives special super abilities. In our world, people do not have such powers, so how does it apply or teach anybody a lesson? It's just a fun story. I wish Denis would shut up about him being a bad guy that we should all learn a lesson from.

tree_ wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

tree_ wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

tree_ wrote:

The Argonaut wrote:"I can see the future" is a super lame fictional power, because it is hard for the reader/viewer to question. He can see the future. It sucks

It's good entertainment, with all the internal struggle of the characters trying to do the right thing for the future by doing horrible things in the present. I just can't understand why Denis and Herbert insist Paul is a bad guy. He's given shitty options in every direction and chooses the best way forward, shitty as it may be.

When someone says they can see the future, they are generally a prophet with followers. This is no different than Paul. But not every belief system is going to believe one guy just because he says so. Paul is destroying millions of lives because he says he can see the future. Why should people of other faiths believe and just let him do it? Herbert does a fantastic job of this prophetic portrayal in the movies, taking it directly from humankind on earth. If some random dude came up to you today and said if you don't believe in him, you'll go to a magical pit of fire forever when you die, but if you believe in this random dude, you'll go to a magical paradise, would you just follow him and think he is a good guy? Why would the Harkkonen or Chani and the other non-believers do that?

But the point I'm making is he can actually see the future and people are wrong not to follow him. In this make believe universe there is prescience, and he basically is a god, and his kid is even more of one. In our world, it doesn't apply and we should never trust someone who claims to be prescient unless they can absolutely prove it somehow, which they can't. Paul can. This story may have been more effective if Paul was a fraud the whole time.

But how do they know he can? Because he says so?

He actually has that power. It's in the book. He's a super human; a Kwisatz Haderach. The people who believe in him and follow him are actually correct, with or without proof. But they do know he drank the worm piss and survived, and the worm piss gives special super abilities. In our world, people do not have such powers, so how does it apply or teach anybody a lesson? It's just a fun story. I wish Denis would shut up about him being a bad guy that we should all learn a lesson from.

So they are supposed to give up their beliefs, let him be responsible for a ton of death and suffering, all because he says he has the power? Doesn't matter if he actually does, they are only able to take his word for it. If you don't see how that makes him at least a little bit of a shithead to the people he causes misery to, I don't think you'll ever see what Herbert was going for.

Ensign9 wrote:

Spoiler: show

Paul, in fact, reverts to a "good guy" in Messiah because he abandons the Golden Path. His son eventually takes on that mantle and does become the "bad guy" tyrant over thousands of years (albeit with the same goal of saving humanity from robots pretending to be an old couple).

wait

Spoiler: show

They are robots !?

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

tree_ wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

tree_ wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

tree_ wrote:

The Argonaut wrote:"I can see the future" is a super lame fictional power, because it is hard for the reader/viewer to question. He can see the future. It sucks

It's good entertainment, with all the internal struggle of the characters trying to do the right thing for the future by doing horrible things in the present. I just can't understand why Denis and Herbert insist Paul is a bad guy. He's given shitty options in every direction and chooses the best way forward, shitty as it may be.

When someone says they can see the future, they are generally a prophet with followers. This is no different than Paul. But not every belief system is going to believe one guy just because he says so. Paul is destroying millions of lives because he says he can see the future. Why should people of other faiths believe and just let him do it? Herbert does a fantastic job of this prophetic portrayal in the movies, taking it directly from humankind on earth. If some random dude came up to you today and said if you don't believe in him, you'll go to a magical pit of fire forever when you die, but if you believe in this random dude, you'll go to a magical paradise, would you just follow him and think he is a good guy? Why would the Harkkonen or Chani and the other non-believers do that?

But the point I'm making is he can actually see the future and people are wrong not to follow him. In this make believe universe there is prescience, and he basically is a god, and his kid is even more of one. In our world, it doesn't apply and we should never trust someone who claims to be prescient unless they can absolutely prove it somehow, which they can't. Paul can. This story may have been more effective if Paul was a fraud the whole time.

But how do they know he can? Because he says so?

He actually has that power. It's in the book. He's a super human; a Kwisatz Haderach. The people who believe in him and follow him are actually correct, with or without proof. But they do know he drank the worm piss and survived, and the worm piss gives special super abilities. In our world, people do not have such powers, so how does it apply or teach anybody a lesson? It's just a fun story. I wish Denis would shut up about him being a bad guy that we should all learn a lesson from.

So they are supposed to give up their beliefs, let him be responsible for a ton of death and suffering, all because he says he has the power? Doesn't matter if he actually does, they are only able to take his word for it. If you don't see how that makes him at least a little bit of a shithead to the people he causes misery to, I don't think you'll ever see what Herbert was going for.

We know the truth about him. It's not even about the people choosing to follow or not follow him or why or why not. The point I'm making is he's ultimately a good guy, doing the best thing possible within his abilities, and I simply don't understand why the author and director insist he's a villain.

tree_ wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

tree_ wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

tree_ wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

tree_ wrote:

The Argonaut wrote:"I can see the future" is a super lame fictional power, because it is hard for the reader/viewer to question. He can see the future. It sucks

It's good entertainment, with all the internal struggle of the characters trying to do the right thing for the future by doing horrible things in the present. I just can't understand why Denis and Herbert insist Paul is a bad guy. He's given shitty options in every direction and chooses the best way forward, shitty as it may be.

When someone says they can see the future, they are generally a prophet with followers. This is no different than Paul. But not every belief system is going to believe one guy just because he says so. Paul is destroying millions of lives because he says he can see the future. Why should people of other faiths believe and just let him do it? Herbert does a fantastic job of this prophetic portrayal in the movies, taking it directly from humankind on earth. If some random dude came up to you today and said if you don't believe in him, you'll go to a magical pit of fire forever when you die, but if you believe in this random dude, you'll go to a magical paradise, would you just follow him and think he is a good guy? Why would the Harkkonen or Chani and the other non-believers do that?

But the point I'm making is he can actually see the future and people are wrong not to follow him. In this make believe universe there is prescience, and he basically is a god, and his kid is even more of one. In our world, it doesn't apply and we should never trust someone who claims to be prescient unless they can absolutely prove it somehow, which they can't. Paul can. This story may have been more effective if Paul was a fraud the whole time.

But how do they know he can? Because he says so?

He actually has that power. It's in the book. He's a super human; a Kwisatz Haderach. The people who believe in him and follow him are actually correct, with or without proof. But they do know he drank the worm piss and survived, and the worm piss gives special super abilities. In our world, people do not have such powers, so how does it apply or teach anybody a lesson? It's just a fun story. I wish Denis would shut up about him being a bad guy that we should all learn a lesson from.

So they are supposed to give up their beliefs, let him be responsible for a ton of death and suffering, all because he says he has the power? Doesn't matter if he actually does, they are only able to take his word for it. If you don't see how that makes him at least a little bit of a shithead to the people he causes misery to, I don't think you'll ever see what Herbert was going for.

We know the truth about him. It's not even about the people choosing to follow or not follow him or why or why not. The point I'm making is he's ultimately a good guy, doing the best thing possible within his abilities, and I simply don't understand why the author and director insist he's a villain.

Spoiler: show

BurtReynolds wrote:

was this from 4chan, 8chan, incel Reddit, or alt-right Reddit?

Elon's personal website

that’s the Source From Which Everything Flows

KWISATZ FUCKIN’ HADERACH

tree_ wrote:

Ensign9 wrote:

Spoiler: show

Paul, in fact, reverts to a "good guy" in Messiah because he abandons the Golden Path. His son eventually takes on that mantle and does become the "bad guy" tyrant over thousands of years (albeit with the same goal of saving humanity from robots pretending to be an old couple).

Spoiler: show

Yes but this is the only way to save humanity! He's a good guy ultimately! And he knows exactly what he's doing because he can see the future clearly. No bad intentions and all actions lead to good. The message shouldn't be "don't trust those in power". It should be "don't trust those in power who can't see the future". Not really applicable to real life.
They are heroes, just not in the way most people would expect or want.

Spoiler: show

I agree, thus the quotes! Paul just loses his nerve.

Dune the story isn't worth going deep on. Dune the movie is a success because it is pretty. The story is shallow/weak