Red Mosquito

I'd love to hear the demos of all the songs on no code. Demos are always better.

There's a few things I think I disagree with on stip's post, one of them being that, despite the fact that Who You Are and In My Tree are not as uptempo as Hail Hail, I wouldn't call them moody, and I don't think they are anywhere close to being similar to Sometimes. That song is far, far more delicate and intimate, at least sonically, than those songs.

I think more broadly I just feel that an album can also be successful in establishing a flow by using contrasts. It seems like you're saying for the album to achieve the right 'flow', the inclines or declines can't be too drastic, too quickly. I don't think that's necessarily a case, that correct flow for an album automatically means smooth transitions. Sometimes into Hail, Hail helps make a very good case for the confusion and volatility that album has always represented to me. So I think flow doesn't always necessarily mean consistent, at least in the album forms. Whether an album works or not is, I guess, a matter of taste, or at least a case-by-case basis; each album makes an argument for how it's sequenced based on how powerful the overall experience is.

digster wrote:There's a few things I think I disagree with on stip's post, one of them being that, despite the fact that Who You Are and In My Tree are not as uptempo as Hail Hail, I wouldn't call them moody, and I don't think they are anywhere close to being similar to Sometimes. That song is far, far more delicate and intimate, at least sonically, than those songs.

I think more broadly I just feel that an album can also be successful in establishing a flow by using contrasts. It seems like you're saying for the album to achieve the right 'flow', the inclines or declines can't be too drastic, too quickly. I don't think that's necessarily a case, that correct flow for an album automatically means smooth transitions. Sometimes into Hail, Hail helps make a very good case for the confusion and volatility that album has always represented to me. So I think flow doesn't always necessarily mean consistent, at least in the album forms. Whether an album works or not is, I guess, a matter of taste, or at least a case-by-case basis; each album makes an argument for how it's sequenced based on how powerful the overall experience is.

fair enough, and I do think that jarring contrasts can be effective at times. I just don't think it is here. Nor do I think they were going for an album of jarring contrasts either. At least part of me thinks they really wanted a quiet and contemplative (comparatively, anyway--I agree that who you are and in my tree are not exactly as quiet and atmospheric as sometimes, but I think they're closer to that ideal than to hail hail) A side bit were afraid to pull the trigger since 5 of the first 6 songs are trying to build a thoughtful mood.

maybe that's what it is,f or me. There is a sense in which Hail Hail's presence is less a study in contrasts and more of a HERE IS A LOUD SONG--NOW PLEASE DON'T GO ANYWHERE WHY WE TRY SOMETHING NEW

Hm...I don't know, I think In My Tree is much closer to Hail Hail than it is to something like Sometimes. It's not quite as raging, but it's an up-tempo rock song. Smile I wouldn't call particularly contemplative in the vein of Sometimes, either.

As for them wanting to make a quiet, contemplative album, I don't know if I'd say that either. If so, why Hail, Hail? In My Tree, Habit, Lukin, Mankind. I would be in total agreement if you were to say there was desire to make a quieter and more contemplative record than they had in the past, but I don't think they were interested in setting one mood, or at least one type of song, throughout the whole thing. I mean, Off He Goes into Habit is just as insane a contrast, as is Lukin ->Present Tense->Mankind. I think there's a lot of examples of No Code wanting to be an album that pulls you around a lot. It's a credit to the production and their songwriting that it manages to be as cohesive as it is.

Stip, I wouldn't call jamming a quiet song up to a loud one new for PJ. They'd done it before.

theplatypus wrote:

stip wrote:Can't Keep into Save You does the exact same thing and I think does it much more successfully.

This makes me wonder if we even perceive and process sounds in the same way.

This is a thought I often have when reading stip's posts.

It's quite fascinating how drastically differently two people can hear the same thing.

dimejinky99 wrote:Stip, I wouldn't call jamming a quiet song up to a loud one new for PJ. They'd done it before.

well sure, since they had quiet songs on their albums. But every pearl jam album prior to this had a loud, aggressive start. The earliest quiet song you got prior to No Code was daughter, and even that was after the explosive Go-Animal beginning.

digster wrote:Hm...I don't know, I think In My Tree is much closer to Hail Hail than it is to something like Sometimes. It's not quite as raging, but it's an up-tempo rock song. Smile I wouldn't call particularly contemplative in the vein of Sometimes, either.

As for them wanting to make a quiet, contemplative album, I don't know if I'd say that either. If so, why Hail, Hail? In My Tree, Habit, Lukin, Mankind. I would be in total agreement if you were to say there was desire to make a quieter and more contemplative record than they had in the past, but I don't think they were interested in setting one mood, or at least one type of song, throughout the whole thing. I mean, Off He Goes into Habit is just as insane a contrast, as is Lukin ->Present Tense->Mankind. I think there's a lot of examples of No Code wanting to be an album that pulls you around a lot. It's a credit to the production and their songwriting that it manages to be as cohesive as it is.

Smile is loud and crunchy, but it's also a wistful late night campfire kind of loud and crunchy. strangely intimate for the kind of song that it is. I guess I just disagree on In My Tree. I agree it isn't supposed to be exactly like sometimes, but I think they are trying to create a contemplative space in the music, the delivery, the ebb and flows in the song. Even the climax of it feels oddly hushed for that kind of song. It is one of the things that is pretty cool about it.


I would excise in my tree from that list above, and if you grant me that Hail hail is really the only loud aggressive song amongst the first 6 in the traditional sense. Habit, Red Mosquito, and Lukin also don't show up until the back half of the record, and signal the start of an extended detour into louder songs (4 of the next 5)

I totally agree that No Code is not one note. I wasn't trying to claim that it was. I do think they are trying to build a sustained mood on the first half of the album, though, and that hail hail gets in the way of it.

I would agree that they're trying to build a certain mood or type of feeling that carries you throughout the first half of the record (and through the whole record for that matter). I just don't think it's a mood that really depends at all on a consistency between the aggressiveness or loudness of each song. I think those first six songs are all very different from each other, if you're just approaching them solely on the level of arrangement, writing and construction.

The implication is that each are totally different and separate styles of each other.

digster wrote:I would agree that they're trying to build a certain mood or type of feeling that carries you throughout the first half of the record (and through the whole record for that matter). I just don't think it's a mood that really depends at all on a consistency between the aggressiveness or loudness of each song. I think those first six songs are all very different from each other, if you're just approaching them solely on the level of arrangement, writing and construction.

that's true, but nevertheleses Hail Hail sticks out, and not in a good way (even though I think it's the best song of the bunch)

Now that I think about it, despite the aggressiveness of Hail, Hail, there actually is a temperance and moodiness to it that separates it from the band's previous louder songs, and it lies mainly in Ed's vocal style on the song. For a singer so well known for his furious scream, Ed's voice never breaks throughout the entire song. It's a loud song sung in a manner more suited for a mid-tempo piece. It's a choice that supports their decision to put it there early on; after all, if a loud song was needed there, why not Habit?

digster wrote:Now that I think about it, despite the aggressiveness of Hail, Hail, there actually is a temperance and moodiness to it that separates it from the band's previous louder songs, and it lies mainly in Ed's vocal style on the song. For a singer so well known for his furious scream, Ed's voice never breaks throughout the entire song. It's a loud song sung in a manner more suited for a mid-tempo piece. It's a choice that supports their decision to put it there early on; after all, if a loud song was needed there, why not Habit?

oh sure, I agree that Hail Hail can fit as a song. My issue is with the explosive loudness of the song, which I think is a production choice. I still don't know that I would want it in the number 2 spot, but I agree it makes more sense on the first half of the record than it would alongside the habit-RM-lukin run

The end of the song is a pretty big contrast to how the guitars slam at you at the start. The bridge also stands out in this way. Hail Hail is much more dynamic than it is given credit for and I would argue the way the song progresses as it goes after that initial 'shock' makes for a fine transition into what follows with Who You Are, ect.

STIP MAD DYNAMICS BAD SDLKGJSDA;KLJGSKDALJGADSL;KJG

Sometimes--->Who You Are wouldn't be a terrible transition but losing the punch Hail, Hail gives you as a listener would not at all be worth it...

I think a lot of this comes from the love you have or do not have for the songs themselves. If the songs carry you, you're going to better make the connections, and if they're songs you dislike (or at least like less), any problems you may feel with the flow will be amplified. I think this also pertains to lyrical connections between songs on albums.

i think hail hail is a really good song. It's just too loud of a transition

I know you seem to have some issues with No Code in general; I'm sure that seeps in. I'm not saying it's your issue, whereas everyone else comes from a place of objectivity. I just think that in general, if an album or a group of songs works for someone they'll fill in the blanks they need to fill in, and if they (comparatively) dislike those songs or album those blanks will loom that much larger.

oh that's true for sure. That's why it might bother me less on an album I liked more, and vice versa