Red Mosquito

Agree.

I consider Facelift a better debut album...hell, Ten is a better debut...Gish...

stip wrote:

digster wrote:It's a pretty popular and acclaimed record, and has sold a shit ton of records. I'd agree with stip that it's not as well known as Nevermind, but what is?

I guess I've really missed where Bleach is an acclaimed record. If it is I'm still going to be pretty convinced that it is more due to the fact that it is nirvana's first album rather than its merits, but that's on me.

http://www.metacritic.com/music/bleach- ... on/nirvana

What else do you need??!

stip wrote:

digster wrote:It's a pretty popular and acclaimed record, and has sold a shit ton of records. I'd agree with stip that it's not as well known as Nevermind, but what is?

I guess I've really missed where Bleach is an acclaimed record. If it is I'm still going to be pretty convinced that it is more due to the fact that it is nirvana's first album rather than its merits, but that's on me.

http://www.metacritic.com/music/bleach- ... on/nirvana

What else do you need??!



that's a VERY high score, but look at the review comments. It really seems like it's appreciated more for what Nirvana would become rather than what Bleach is.

Bleach showed instances of promise and a few songs went on to become some of the best they ever wrote, but in comparison, it pales to the band’s later work. So take it all in stride because Bleach is surely for fanatics but certainly not for everyone.

Even if the songwriting didn’t completely explore the full scope of Cobain’s capabilities, Bleach also represents that point in time when money was an object and the music was all that mattered, a precursor to a cultural shift that made Sub Pop a national brand.

Alongside some ridiculous reviews. Alternative Press gives it a 100 and the blurb said nothing more than 'This is a test'

I don't want to derail this thread again. But I am so sorry I missed the Bleach Wars in real time. These last few pages have been miraculous.

I think Bleach is a good album but sloppy (which goes with the post-punk aesthetic Kurt was from so that's fine, it's just my so much my bag). It's also notable for the fact that Dave Grohl wasn't on it so the drumming is bad.

harmless wrote:It's also notable for the fact that Dave Grohl wasn't on it so the drumming is bad.

Agreed with one important quibble: Dale Crover plays on Floyd the Barber and Paper Cuts and he's GREAT.

Chad Channing seems like a lovely guy but his drumming really does hold back some of the pre-Grohl recordings. Dave made an IMMENSE contribution to their sound.

Also, you know, Kurt became a really good songwriter. That helped too.

Birds in Hell wrote:

harmless wrote:It's also notable for the fact that Dave Grohl wasn't on it so the drumming is bad.

Agreed with one important quibble: Dale Crover plays on Floyd the Barber and Paper Cuts and he's GREAT.

Chad Channing seems like a lovely guy but his drumming really does hold back some of the pre-Grohl recordings. Dave made an IMMENSE contribution to their sound.

I will have another listen to those songs listening to the drums especially.

stip wrote:Also, you know, Kurt became a really good songwriter. That helped too.

I think that with the aesthetic he was going for, even his bad songs work. 'Rape Me' is hardly a good song but all it has to be to succeed is aggressively miserable.

Yeah but rape me is on in utero. My basic contention is that bleach, whatever it's charms, is not full of great songwriting - the kind of stuff that puts you in the running for best songwriter of the decade. Never mind and in utero sure, but not bleach. So basically two albums, which is actually not a whole lot of work.

The pre-Bleach demo session from January 1988, from which Paper Cuts and Floyd the Barber were taken, should've been their first record. Most of the remaining songs ended up on Incesticide.

It's probably my single favourite Nirvana session, totally unique and full of small-town weirdness.

January 23, 1988 - Reciprocal Recording, Seattle, WA, US

If You Must
Downer
Floyd the Barber
Paper Cuts
Spank Thru
Hairspray Queen
Aero Zeppelin
Beeswax
Mexican Seafood
Pen Cap Chew

stip wrote:Yeah but rape me is on in utero. My basic contention is that bleach, whatever it's charms, is not full of great songwriting - the kind of stuff that puts you in the running for best songwriter of the decade. Never mind and in utero sure, but not bleach. So basically two albums, which is actually not a whole lot of work.

1. I don't really care who gets best songwriter of the decade, those lists are usually dubious.
2. I know 'Rape Me' is on In Utero, I mentioned it because your argument was that he got better as a songwriter, which I don't think is true in a lot of cases, and according to the punk aesthetic, I wouldn't call many of the Bleach songs (or even 'Rape Me', for that matter) 'bad' on its own terms. Bleach is more 'punk', it's not 'worse' just because it's less commercial / less likely to show up on a Best Of list.

I agree with Dave putting the band up there....is funny Cobain kinda hated his drumming though.

Jimmy is a beast in all those videos, i cant believe he played like that under all the stuff he was taking at the time.

VinylGuy wrote:I agree with Dave putting the band up there....is funny Cobain kinda hated his drumming though.

Really? That's interesting. It would appear that two of my favourite singers (Ed and Kurt) thought that two of my favourite drummers (Dave and Dave) were shit.

I suspect that bit of Nirvana mythology to be largely spurious.

harmless wrote:it's not 'worse' just because it's less commercial / less likely to show up on a Best Of list.

but... that's... exactly... how we determine what's 'best' and what's 'worse'

Heathen wrote:

harmless wrote:it's not 'worse' just because it's less commercial / less likely to show up on a Best Of list.

but... that's... exactly... how we determine what's 'best' and what's 'worse'

You're right. I may have to rethink this.

harmless wrote:

VinylGuy wrote:I agree with Dave putting the band up there....is funny Cobain kinda hated his drumming though.

Really? That's interesting. It would appear that two of my favourite singers (Ed and Kurt) thought that two of my favourite drummers (Dave and Dave) were shit.

Kurt didn't hate Dave's drumming. Kurt and Krist saw him play with Scream and were desperate for him to join their band. Dave claims that, even though Kurt wasn't very forthcoming with compliments, he left him a voicemail after they finished In Utero to tell him how thrilled he was with the drumming.

And there you have it.

Butch Vig has also talked about how Kurt used to call him to tell him how excited he was about having Dave in the band.