Red Mosquito

Double posted for some reason. See below.

I often thought of Liz Phair and Lisa Loeb. Enjoying themselves...exploring each other's bodies...being free...

PryTo wrote:

Lament wrote:I love Liz Phair more than any moderately rational human being should, but the idea that Whitechocolatespaceegg is an artistically challenging record is one that strikes me as ridiculous.

They didn’t tell you? You have to agree with everything I write. No seriously, to each their own. Exile in Guyville gets all the acclaim, and it’s a great album, too, worthy of the accolades. She followed that up with the less successful Whip Smart, which didn’t do much for me – or many others, apparently. It was an attempt to recreate the first album, but the shock value had worn off the tunes just weren’t there. It was four years before she was heard from again. SpaceEgg is nothing like the previous records. She had gotten married, had a kid, was getting divorce, and dating again as a single mom. “I fear for the year in his eyes,” she sings, of her son. SpaceEgg managed to do what so many have attempted and failed to pull off (most relevantly, one Eddie Vedder): Make grown up music about these issues that’s every bit as compelling and artistically satisfying as their earlier material. And this is coming from someone who, at that time, had not experienced marriage, having kids, etc. So for me to give a shit about Liz Phair’s divorced mom album must have meant that I thought the world of it. Which I did. It’s a fantastically grown up, adult album, yet it’s still full of songs that swing and sway and rock and make you bob your head and tap your feet. Artistically, it broke new ground for Phair. Really, it sounds nothing like the first two albums. The fans of those albums hated hated hated SpaceEgg. I thought it was genius. It probably resonates more now than it did then, since I’m married and have a kid. (Not divorced, fortunately.) Anyway, Liz Phair is an acquired taste and this is an album that polarized many. Personally, I loved it and still do, undoubtedly in part due to the fact that I was forced to listen to it about a thousand times while backpacking through Europe all those years ago.

PryTo wrote:

PryTo wrote:

Lament wrote:I love Liz Phair more than any moderately rational human being should, but the idea that Whitechocolatespaceegg is an artistically challenging record is one that strikes me as ridiculous.

They didn’t tell you? You have to agree with everything I write.

Yeah, that was why I said "strikes me as" instead of just saying "that's ridiculous."

I don't know, to me it just doesn't seem like much of a departure from Whip-Smart. I find Whip-Smart to be way more daring, trading in the super lo-fi confessional approach of Exile for a brash, loud record. I love the way Whip-Smart starts with the most Exile-esque song on the album and then goes straight into Supernova (which is unlike anything from the first record). Whip-Smart was probably too "Look at how clever I am" for a lot of people, but it's a record I find I still enjoy today despite it's obvious flaws (and the title track is one of my favorite feel-good songs ever).

I do genuinely like Whitechocolatespaceegg and have listened to it back to front pretty regularly since it came out, but it also struck me as a more polished, toned down Whip-Smart. Sometimes it works fantastically, especially on Perfect World & Polyester Bride. In fact the first half of the album is pretty flat-out fantastic. The album definitely loses steam and drags on for me once it gets past Uncle Alvarez (though I enjoyed Combo Platter being brought back as Shitloads of Money).

I can't speak to the themes, though I can see why they would attract people who are dealing with the same issues she addresses. The album (for the most part) takes place in a world completely foreign to mine, though, and while sometimes the music and storytelling transcends it, quite a bit of it fails to stay with me. This album is probably the work of hers that time has most lessened my opinion of. When it came out I went through a phase where I thought it was her second best work after Exile, but now I think I honestly prefer Whip-Smart, the self-titled, and maybe even Somebody's Miracle to it (and yes, I'm being completely serious).

Yep, I like all of those. Everyone trashed S/T but they overlooked what was good about it. “Little Digger” just slays me. I have no idea why I like her songs about motherhood so much. They just seem honest to me, and I appreciate that. I love much of “Somebody’s Miracle,” too.

If you haven’t heard it (and you probably have) the Comeandgetit EP is phenomenal.

We seem to have taken over the Yield thread with Liz Phair. Sorry everyone!

Given to Fly – Let the flames begin. This, to me, was the first time I lost respect for PJ, although it would hardly be the last. I’m sorry, but this is just a blatant ripoff of Led Zeppelin and to say anything else is insane. No, it was not “influenced” by Led Zeppelin, it is a direct and complete ripoff. This would be an open and shut case had Zep chosen to sue for plagiarism. And I’m sorry, but I didn’t like Creed’s shitty ripoffs of PJ and I don’t like PJ’s shitty ripoffs of Zeppelin. Yes, it’s a great song live. And it better be because it’s right up there with Alive and Even Flow for piss-break, every-fucking-show-without-fail setlist appearances. And I do like the build and I do like Vedder’s vocal performance, but I just can’t get past the fact that they’re stealing another band’s song and calling it their own.

So, it is your opinion then that the members of Pearl Jam had a listen to "Going to California" and thought, "Wow, that is a nice song. Let's deliberately steal this and lie and say that we wrote it ourselves"?

And, to think, they would've gotten away with their cunning ruse were it not for the dedicated fans of that little-known 1970s British rock band.

Kevin Davis wrote:

And I’m sorry, but I didn’t like Creed’s shitty ripoffs of PJ and I don’t like PJ’s shitty ripoffs of Zeppelin.

So, it is your opinion then that the members of Pearl Jam had a listen to "Going to California" and thought, "Wow, that is a nice song. Let's deliberately steal this and lie and say that we wrote it ourselves"?

I think the better question is, if he doesn't like Creed's shitty ripoffs of PJ and he doesn't like PJ's shitty ripoffs of Zeppelin, how does he feel about Zeppelin's shitty ripoffs of every bluesman to grace the face of the earth in the twentieth century?

Not the same. Zeppelin used alternate tunings and Page's guitar had two necks.

I will also go on record as saying that I don't think "All Those Yesterdays" is a "reflective ballad," or even a ballad at all really.

Kevin Davis wrote:Page's guitar had two necks.

I like to think of Pearl Jam as having a double necked guitar player, but in two separate bodies, playing two separate guitars.

Kevin Davis wrote:I will also go on record as saying that I don't think "All Those Yesterdays" is a "reflective ballad," or even a ballad at all really.

duly noted.

IlluminEddie wrote:I'm sure I'm being baited here. But, I figured I'd respond anyway, just for shits and giggles.

So, let's get this straight. Yesterday, I post a thread with a few questions for fans about Yield. The idea was about the total concept behind the album... the idea that fueled the entire album. To me, it didn't fit in a thread about just "Yield".

So, a big, most likely large, douchey person came along and decided he didn't like that I started a thread about Yield not in THE Yield thread. So, he pissed and moaned by creating roughly 10 additional threads (just being a douche), trying to talk about 'concepts' of everything.

Then, the Mod (I think their name was Sea or Kat or something) comes along and listens to the douche's point on my thread belonging in a broader Yield category, disregarding the fact that there were threads on a multiple other subjects that could be merged into broader categories elsewhere. Kat or Sea, or whatever their name is, then merges the thread to a Yield thread. The thought was... Yield thoughts should be in the Yield thread.

Of course, now reading the new contributions to THIS thread, the irony is obvious. UMMMM... Stip, bud.... there's another fucking Yield thread according to your favorite mods. Go back to the main page and scroll the fuck down! Put this shit in there. Merge it.

At least be consistent douches. Don't just be douches for douche-sake.

1. This is a long established thread series. It first started on the old board. These threads were created and linked to the similar threads on the old board before this one even went live. They are actually indexed alongside all the other long running series threads

2. I've been bumping one of these threads a week for a month or so now, in preparation for the march madness tournament.

3. Another excellent venue for talking about Yield can be found here

4. One of your favorite mods (not me, I know I am THE favorite) has created your very own thread in General Discussion for your all purpose musings and ramblings. Only the most special RMers get one these, so yes, you should be flattered.

Lament wrote:

PryTo wrote:Liz Phair had sort of come and gone, so it’s too bad that “Whitechocolate” never got its due. It’s one of my favorite records of all time and so criminally underrated it’s almost beyond belief. My point? These were two once-popular artists whose latest albums, both released the same year as Yield, were ambitious and artistically challenging in ways that Yield was not.

I love Liz Phair more than any moderately rational human being should, but the idea that Whitechocolatespaceegg is an artistically challenging record is one that strikes me as ridiculous.

I liked her first two albums

Kevin Davis wrote:Not the same. Zeppelin used alternate tunings and Page's guitar had two necks.

plus those songs are from the negro leagues, and therefore don't count

Lament wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:

And I’m sorry, but I didn’t like Creed’s shitty ripoffs of PJ and I don’t like PJ’s shitty ripoffs of Zeppelin.

So, it is your opinion then that the members of Pearl Jam had a listen to "Going to California" and thought, "Wow, that is a nice song. Let's deliberately steal this and lie and say that we wrote it ourselves"?

I think the better question is, if he doesn't like Creed's shitty ripoffs of PJ and he doesn't like PJ's shitty ripoffs of Zeppelin, how does he feel about Zeppelin's shitty ripoffs of every bluesman to grace the face of the earth in the twentieth century?

They're equally guilty, and not just bluesmen, but folks artists like Jake Holmes. Shitty ripoffs are shitty ripoffs, no matter who's doing the stealing.

Kevin Davis wrote:So, it is your opinion then that the members of Pearl Jam had a listen to "Going to California" and thought, "Wow, that is a nice song. Let's deliberately steal this and lie and say that we wrote it ourselves"?

I have no opinion or thought as to how they came to the decision to rip off Zeppelin. But there can't be any question that they knew what they were doing. It's not like Yield was released and all of the sudden they went, "Oh shit, we had no idea." It is what it is, but GTF has never been one of my favorite songs and that's the main reason. I'd already heard it before.

I was just trying to ascertain that you did indeed believe they made a conscious choice to steal, to take someone else's song and then deliberately lie about the writing credits.

My disdain for this position is well-documented here so I will refrain from ranting. But, ugh.

PryTo wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:So, it is your opinion then that the members of Pearl Jam had a listen to "Going to California" and thought, "Wow, that is a nice song. Let's deliberately steal this and lie and say that we wrote it ourselves"?

I have no opinion or thought as to how they came to the decision to rip off Zeppelin. But there can't be any question that they knew what they were doing. It's not like Yield was released and all of the sudden they went, "Oh shit, we had no idea." It is what it is, but GTF has never been one of my favorite songs and that's the main reason. I'd already heard it before.

i get the vocals and riff sound similar, but as far as actual songs, they couldnt be more far apart. 'going to california' is a sad folk song, 'given to fly' is a rock n roll song that rises and falls like a wave (sorry for the wave reference, but this is a pearl jam board). there are parts of the songs that are similar, but the songs themselves are nothing alike. its like saying you dont wanna like 'teen spirit' b/c you heard 'more than a feeling' before.