Red Mosquito

I think we all know by the number of Gold Gloves that Derrick Jeter won later in his career that that stat is pretty much worthless.

Is Julio Franco in the hall?

Chris_H_2 wrote:I think we all know by the number of Gold Gloves that Derrick Jeter won later in his career that that stat is pretty much worthless.

I know. It was acknowledged in the initial post. However, it IS something the writers look at. Which is a joke, but it's the way it is...

same way Trammell gets knocked by voters for not having an MVP, even though it was the writers that jobbed him out of one in 87

verb_to_trust wrote:Is Julio Franco in the hall?

Yes. Duh!

Chris_H_2 wrote:I think we all know by the number of Gold Gloves that Derrick Jeter won later in his career that that stat is pretty much worthless.

Very true. Raffy won one in 1999 and he played 28 games at first. Michael fucking Young won one haha. Much respect for MY....a poor man's Paul Molitor with the bat.....but he was average at best in the field. There is a terrible thought process in baseball that if you can play 3-4 positions you are good defensively.

Eric Chavez was incredible with the glove at 3rd. He gave his first gold glove to the guy he credited for teaching him what he needed to get to an elite level at the position. You know him....

@SkitchP wrote:

Chris_H_2 wrote:I think we all know by the number of Gold Gloves that Derrick Jeter won later in his career that that stat is pretty much worthless.

I know. It was acknowledged in the initial post. However, it IS something the writers look at. Which is a joke, but it's the way it is...

same way Trammell gets knocked by voters for not having an MVP, even though it was the writers that jobbed him out of one in 87

Trammell should be a hall of famer if Barry Larkin is. Larkin was no better than Trammell. There careers are almost identical. Yes Larkin won an MVP (95) but that should have been Maddux. Both won a World Series but Tram was the WS MVP. Both are underrated and did not get the love the deserve(d) because of Cal and Ozzie.

I do agree Trammell got screwed in 87. I wanna say he has two more years on the ballot? Shame really. Maybe the Blue Jay fan with the Arrested Development avi can answer this but was Tony Fernandez REALLY that much better in the late 80s at SS than Trammell? If you add a few GG's to Trammell's resume maybe he gets in. My Tony Fernandez knowledge is more so in San Diego, helping cost Cleveland a World Series title in 97 and late in his career.

@SkitchP wrote:

Chris_H_2 wrote:I think we all know by the number of Gold Gloves that Derrick Jeter won later in his career that that stat is pretty much worthless.

I know. It was acknowledged in the initial post. However, it IS something the writers look at. Which is a joke, but it's the way it is...

same way Trammell gets knocked by voters for not having an MVP, even though it was the writers that jobbed him out of one in 87

I had Alan Trammell autograph a ball when he was bench coach for the Cubs. He signed it "Alan Trammell, '84 World Series MVP." I asked him to add "'87 AL MVP." I almost got him to do it, but he politely declined.

The new contributors committee for the football HOF just nominated Ron Wolf and Bill Polian.

There were rumors that Pat Bowlen was one of the finalists. There are probably a few that deserve to be in ahead of him, but I wish he'd get in now because he may not have the ability to remember getting in very soon. Just another reason why it's stupid to limit the number of candidates that can be enshrined in one year.

BigRedLedbetter wrote:

@SkitchP wrote:

Chris_H_2 wrote:I think we all know by the number of Gold Gloves that Derrick Jeter won later in his career that that stat is pretty much worthless.

I know. It was acknowledged in the initial post. However, it IS something the writers look at. Which is a joke, but it's the way it is...

same way Trammell gets knocked by voters for not having an MVP, even though it was the writers that jobbed him out of one in 87

Trammell should be a hall of famer if Barry Larkin is. Larkin was no better than Trammell. There careers are almost identical. Yes Larkin won an MVP (95) but that should have been Maddux. Both won a World Series but Tram was the WS MVP. Both are underrated and did not get the love the deserve(d) because of Cal and Ozzie.

I do agree Trammell got screwed in 87. I wanna say he has two more years on the ballot? Shame really. Maybe the Blue Jay fan with the Arrested Development avi can answer this but was Tony Fernandez REALLY that much better in the late 80s at SS than Trammell? If you add a few GG's to Trammell's resume maybe he gets in. My Tony Fernandez knowledge is more so in San Diego, helping cost Cleveland a World Series title in 97 and late in his career.

I don't think you can really argue that Trammell deserved the Gold Glove any more than Fernandez, but I also wasn't around to actually watch them. Fernandez does have a reputation as a spectacular defender, though.

Trammell belongs right in that group of middle infielders with Alomar, Larkin, Sandberg, Smith... and he belongs in the Hall of Fame. He didn't have one stand-out tool, but he did everything very well, and a lot of those things are severely undervalued by the types of people who are now responsible for keeping him out.

FWIW, Miguel Cabrera is a Gold-Glove award finalist this year.

That is all.

Chris_H_2 wrote:FWIW, Miguel Cabrera is a Gold-Glove award finalist this year.

That is all.

He's by no means spectacular, but his defense at first isn't an abomination like it was at 3rd at times.

Chris_H_2 wrote:FWIW, Miguel Cabrera is a Gold-Glove award finalist this year.

That is all.

You know, I read this, and then I laughed and shook my head a little. But advanced stats suggest he was somewhere between "mediocre" and "actually kind of decent", which, given the defensive standards of first basemen, makes him a legitimate candidate.

His UZR was only behind Pujols, Teixeira and Napoli among AL first basemen. It actually looks like Hosmer is the one who really doesn't belong.

Weird.

@SkitchP wrote:

Chris_H_2 wrote:FWIW, Miguel Cabrera is a Gold-Glove award finalist this year.

That is all.

He's by no means spectacular, but his defense at first isn't an abomination like it was at 3rd at times.

Castellanos now fills that void left by Cabrera.

philpritchard wrote:

Chris_H_2 wrote:FWIW, Miguel Cabrera is a Gold-Glove award finalist this year.

That is all.

But advanced stats suggest he was somewhere between "mediocre" and "actually kind of decent", which, given the defensive standards of first basemen, makes him a legitimate candidate.

And this pretty much sums up the argument against ever using Gold Gloves as a criterion for the HOF.

The one nominee who really stands out to me is Adeiny Hechavarria, and I think it goes to show how much reputation plays into the award. He was signed because of his spectacular defensive reputation, but he's been a pretty terrible defender since joining the league. Still, the skill is there, so he makes enough highlight-reel plays to keep himself in the conversation despite being pretty awful overall.

Not that it matters, since I'm sure Andrelton Simmons has this one locked up anyway.

Chris_H_2 wrote:

philpritchard wrote:

Chris_H_2 wrote:FWIW, Miguel Cabrera is a Gold-Glove award finalist this year.

That is all.

But advanced stats suggest he was somewhere between "mediocre" and "actually kind of decent", which, given the defensive standards of first basemen, makes him a legitimate candidate.

And this pretty much sums up the argument against ever using Gold Gloves as a criterion for the HOF.

Absolutely! Using the Trammell example, I hate how voters will justify decisions with things like "Didn't win enough Gold Gloves" instead of looking at his whole career and saying "He was an outstanding defensive player".

As fantastic a fielder as Jackie Bradley is, I'm not cool with him being nominated for a gold glove when he got sent to AAA in august and barely played when he returned after the AAA season ended.

numbers wrote:As fantastic a fielder as Jackie Bradley is, I'm not cool with him being nominated for a gold glove when he got sent to AAA in august and barely played when he returned after the AAA season ended.

Agreed 100%. He is awesome with the glove but he had 423 plate appearances.

It would be like if some defensive specialist backup 1B that comes into games in the 8th inning won a gold glove.

numbers wrote:It would be like if some defensive specialist backup 1B that comes into games in the 8th inning won a gold glove.

You wouldn't give the batting title to a dude who only had 40 at bats.