Red Mosquito

You guys have been arguing with Burt for 4 months.

stip wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:What's confounding about it? She's a walking, talking Deus Ex Machina.

it's a structural problem either way: Either Rey is an invincible Mary Sue or Ren is an incompetent weakling, but either way there is no drama in that scene because there is not much danger to the protagonist. But it was funny watching Finn get his ass kicked yet again. That poor dude can't fight his way out of a wet paper bag.

That's a nonsense critique in the post prequel world. The OT really restricted what Jedi could do (which I preferred). But after the prequels where major character after major character could basically do everything all the powerful Jedi are going to have a similar skill set. Rey does nothing that Obi-Wan or Anakin didn't do, and more (really she's not that much different than Luke, a crazy good pilot with force powers who could also talk to droids. I guess she was a better mechanic). Yes, she's more powerful than Han Solo, but that's no longer a benchmark for Jedi.

She's also no different than half the characters populating super hero movies, other than her boobs.


And as established, Ren was half dead when they fought, and conflicted about what he had done (this plays out nicely in the 'you need a teacher' exchange during their duel, as well as other places), which limits a Jedi's ability to use the force.


There are some plot problems in Force Awakens, but this really isn't one of them.

Hey it sucked in the prequels, so it can suck here too! You can't be serious.

Abrams ignored the prequels completely except (in your mind) this, so why couldn't they ignore the stupid wonderjedi too? They could have easily chalked up the bullshit in the prequels to Anakin being the chosen one or whatever, and simply went with the original restrictions, which are of course better (they already ripped off everything else). But then they'd actually have to write something beyond "oh she is just great at everything so she escapes". It's boring and should insult your intelligence.

Writing is easy!
James Bond needs to get out of a tight spot? Give him rocket legs!
Colonial Marines need to stop the alien infestation? just nuke the site from orbit.
Wolverine needs to fight Magneto? Ok, now he has plastic bones instead of metal ones.

Who cares right? These idiots will lap it up. $$$$

If Ren was half dead, the actor did an amazingly shitty job of selling it. A slight limp does not equal half dead. But being half dead only proves that he wasn't much of a threat, thus it's not very dramatic when Superman...er Rey beats him. Generally speaking, one should be wondering how the hero is gonna overcome seemingly insurmountable obstacles, not watch as she easily defeats a cripple. I mean, for fuck's sake, they weren't even very impressed with the stupid death star! (in their defense, yet another death star isn't very impressive.) That's why no one wants to see Superman fight bank robbers.

stip wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:What's confounding about it? She's a walking, talking Deus Ex Machina.

it's a structural problem either way: Either Rey is an invincible Mary Sue or Ren is an incompetent weakling, but either way there is no drama in that scene because there is not much danger to the protagonist. But it was funny watching Finn get his ass kicked yet again. That poor dude can't fight his way out of a wet paper bag.

That's a nonsense critique in the post prequel world. The OT really restricted what Jedi could do (which I preferred). But after the prequels where major character after major character could basically do everything all the powerful Jedi are going to have a similar skill set. Rey does nothing that Obi-Wan or Anakin didn't do, and more (really she's not that much different than Luke, a crazy good pilot with force powers who could also talk to droids. I guess she was a better mechanic). Yes, she's more powerful than Han Solo, but that's no longer a benchmark for Jedi.

She's also no different than half the characters populating super hero movies, other than her boobs.


And as established, Ren was half dead when they fought, and conflicted about what he had done (this plays out nicely in the 'you need a teacher' exchange during their duel, as well as other places), which limits a Jedi's ability to use the force.


There are some plot problems in Force Awakens, but this really isn't one of them.

It is a problem.

That goddamn Death Star planning scene... it still cracks me up.

Asshat: They gotta a new death star.
Han: so?
Poe: Well, uh this one is really big.
Han: They always put some ridiculous weak point that makes the whole thing explode, right?
Asshat: Uh... well... yes they actually did and we have the instructions right here...
Han: haha you can't be serious. I was joking. Are we seriously about to do this again?
Poe: you know what? fuck this shit. This is some lazy goddamn writing. I quit.
Harrison Ford: I can't believe I'm getting paid for this shit.

end scene.

Watching the film, most of Rey's successes didn't feel easy (in hindsight sure, or with the knowledge that the character is going to succeed because she's a main character). Her first encounter with Ren, for instance, just had her running, and it was pretty intimidating.

And the jedi stuff goes beyond the prequels (in the cartoons, comics, everything). Jedi are just significantly more powerful now--to the point that the whole idea behind the movie is that one single Jedi (Luke) could theoretically alter the balance of the war (and Snoke seemed more concerned with discovering another potential powerful jedi than he did with the loss of another death star).

That's not a question of lazy writing. It's something foundational built into the fabric of the universe. Jedi are not the special forces they were in the OT. They had gradually turned into super heroes. Right now each side has two (Rey/Luke v Ren/Snoke), with the rest of the conflict shaping up around those two sides.

If Rey was suddenly running rampant through the world of Fury Road I would agree with you. But people who are strong in the force are essentially in a class by themselves. that's why the force awakens was never really about whether or not Rey was in any danger. It was a hero's journey where she gradually comes to accept who she is. Her conflicts are internal (external to the extent that external events impact that internal struggle).

The same can be said of Ren, for that matter, which is one of the reasons why Rey beats him in the end. Rey starts to open up (in that moment) to who she is at the moment that Ren is doubting himself.

I feel like Burt right now

Mecca wrote:

stip wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:What's confounding about it? She's a walking, talking Deus Ex Machina.

it's a structural problem either way: Either Rey is an invincible Mary Sue or Ren is an incompetent weakling, but either way there is no drama in that scene because there is not much danger to the protagonist. But it was funny watching Finn get his ass kicked yet again. That poor dude can't fight his way out of a wet paper bag.

That's a nonsense critique in the post prequel world. The OT really restricted what Jedi could do (which I preferred). But after the prequels where major character after major character could basically do everything all the powerful Jedi are going to have a similar skill set. Rey does nothing that Obi-Wan or Anakin didn't do, and more (really she's not that much different than Luke, a crazy good pilot with force powers who could also talk to droids. I guess she was a better mechanic). Yes, she's more powerful than Han Solo, but that's no longer a benchmark for Jedi.

She's also no different than half the characters populating super hero movies, other than her boobs.


And as established, Ren was half dead when they fought, and conflicted about what he had done (this plays out nicely in the 'you need a teacher' exchange during their duel, as well as other places), which limits a Jedi's ability to use the force.


There are some plot problems in Force Awakens, but this really isn't one of them.

It is a problem.

No, it isn't. Or, if it is, your problem is with the way what it means to be a jedi has been altered in the last twenty five years.


I also assume both you and Burt are quick to level this critique at, say, Tony Stark or Batman.

Passive force powers like intuition are totally different from active force powers like the Jedi mind trick which she uses based on some myth she once heard about Jedi powers. Why would Obi Wan even bother sending Luke to Yoda for training when he'd just figure shit out on his own?

BurtReynolds wrote:That goddamn Death Star planning scene... it still cracks me up.

Asshat: They gotta a new death star.
Han: so?
Poe: Well, uh this one is really big.
Han: They always put some ridiculous weak point that makes the whole thing explode, right?
Asshat: Uh... well... yes they actually did and we have the instructions right here...
Han: haha you can't be serious. I was joking. Are we seriously about to do this again?
Poe: you know what? fuck this shit. This is some lazy goddamn writing. I quit.
Harrison Ford: I can't believe I'm getting paid for this shit.

end scene.

I get why they did this, and I can defend it from a certain vantage point, but you're on much stronger ground here then the Rey silliness.

Mecca wrote:Passive force powers like intuition are totally different from active force powers like the Jedi mind trick which she uses based on some myth she once heard about Jedi powers. Why would Obi Wan even bother sending Luke to Yoda for training when he'd just figure shit out on his own?

Luke learns how to call his lightsaber from a distance without any formal training.

stip wrote:

Mecca wrote:

stip wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:What's confounding about it? She's a walking, talking Deus Ex Machina.

it's a structural problem either way: Either Rey is an invincible Mary Sue or Ren is an incompetent weakling, but either way there is no drama in that scene because there is not much danger to the protagonist. But it was funny watching Finn get his ass kicked yet again. That poor dude can't fight his way out of a wet paper bag.

That's a nonsense critique in the post prequel world. The OT really restricted what Jedi could do (which I preferred). But after the prequels where major character after major character could basically do everything all the powerful Jedi are going to have a similar skill set. Rey does nothing that Obi-Wan or Anakin didn't do, and more (really she's not that much different than Luke, a crazy good pilot with force powers who could also talk to droids. I guess she was a better mechanic). Yes, she's more powerful than Han Solo, but that's no longer a benchmark for Jedi.

She's also no different than half the characters populating super hero movies, other than her boobs.


And as established, Ren was half dead when they fought, and conflicted about what he had done (this plays out nicely in the 'you need a teacher' exchange during their duel, as well as other places), which limits a Jedi's ability to use the force.


There are some plot problems in Force Awakens, but this really isn't one of them.

It is a problem.

No, it isn't. Or, if it is, your problem is with the way what it means to be a jedi has been altered in the last twenty five years.


I also assume both you and Burt are quick to level this critique at, say, Tony Stark or Batman.

The difference between OT Jedi and Prequel Jedi is that prequel Jedi were all trained from a young age.

also, that's a really fun scene, so my other point would be who cares if this violates the rules as written on page 123 of the Jedi Knight Player's Guide supplement

Mecca wrote:

stip wrote:

Mecca wrote:

stip wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:What's confounding about it? She's a walking, talking Deus Ex Machina.

it's a structural problem either way: Either Rey is an invincible Mary Sue or Ren is an incompetent weakling, but either way there is no drama in that scene because there is not much danger to the protagonist. But it was funny watching Finn get his ass kicked yet again. That poor dude can't fight his way out of a wet paper bag.

That's a nonsense critique in the post prequel world. The OT really restricted what Jedi could do (which I preferred). But after the prequels where major character after major character could basically do everything all the powerful Jedi are going to have a similar skill set. Rey does nothing that Obi-Wan or Anakin didn't do, and more (really she's not that much different than Luke, a crazy good pilot with force powers who could also talk to droids. I guess she was a better mechanic). Yes, she's more powerful than Han Solo, but that's no longer a benchmark for Jedi.

She's also no different than half the characters populating super hero movies, other than her boobs.


And as established, Ren was half dead when they fought, and conflicted about what he had done (this plays out nicely in the 'you need a teacher' exchange during their duel, as well as other places), which limits a Jedi's ability to use the force.


There are some plot problems in Force Awakens, but this really isn't one of them.

It is a problem.

No, it isn't. Or, if it is, your problem is with the way what it means to be a jedi has been altered in the last twenty five years.


I also assume both you and Burt are quick to level this critique at, say, Tony Stark or Batman.

The difference between OT Jedi and Prequel Jedi is that prequel Jedi were all trained from a young age.

And they all do a lot more than Rey does. The only active force power she uses beyond intuition is the jedi mind trick.

The crazy thing is I know at least 2 of you aren't virgins.

stip wrote:

Mecca wrote:

stip wrote:

Mecca wrote:

stip wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:What's confounding about it? She's a walking, talking Deus Ex Machina.

it's a structural problem either way: Either Rey is an invincible Mary Sue or Ren is an incompetent weakling, but either way there is no drama in that scene because there is not much danger to the protagonist. But it was funny watching Finn get his ass kicked yet again. That poor dude can't fight his way out of a wet paper bag.

That's a nonsense critique in the post prequel world. The OT really restricted what Jedi could do (which I preferred). But after the prequels where major character after major character could basically do everything all the powerful Jedi are going to have a similar skill set. Rey does nothing that Obi-Wan or Anakin didn't do, and more (really she's not that much different than Luke, a crazy good pilot with force powers who could also talk to droids. I guess she was a better mechanic). Yes, she's more powerful than Han Solo, but that's no longer a benchmark for Jedi.

She's also no different than half the characters populating super hero movies, other than her boobs.


And as established, Ren was half dead when they fought, and conflicted about what he had done (this plays out nicely in the 'you need a teacher' exchange during their duel, as well as other places), which limits a Jedi's ability to use the force.


There are some plot problems in Force Awakens, but this really isn't one of them.

It is a problem.

No, it isn't. Or, if it is, your problem is with the way what it means to be a jedi has been altered in the last twenty five years.


I also assume both you and Burt are quick to level this critique at, say, Tony Stark or Batman.

The difference between OT Jedi and Prequel Jedi is that prequel Jedi were all trained from a young age.

And they all do a lot more than Rey does. The only active force power she uses beyond intuition is the jedi mind trick.

Which I would argue she should've failed at.

This is all moot if we find out Luke trained her at least a little bit as a child

theplatypus wrote:The crazy thing is I know at least 2 of you aren't virgins.

Stip could've had his child through in vitro fertilization

Mecca wrote:

theplatypus wrote:The crazy thing is I know at least 2 of you aren't virgins.

Stip could've had his child through in vitro fertilization

Or through the force

Mecca wrote:

theplatypus wrote:The crazy thing is I know at least 2 of you aren't virgins.

Stip could've had his child through in vitro fertilization

maybe the force just impregnated my wife on two non-consecutive occasions

but if that's true I feel like I should be allowed to win any star wars related argument by default.

Maybe not against Dime.

stip wrote:Watching the film, most of Rey's successes didn't feel easy (in hindsight sure, or with the knowledge that the character is going to succeed because she's a main character). Her first encounter with Ren, for instance, just had her running, and it was pretty intimidating.

And the jedi stuff goes beyond the prequels (in the cartoons, comics, everything). Jedi are just significantly more powerful now--to the point that the whole idea behind the movie is that one single Jedi (Luke) could theoretically alter the balance of the war (and Snoke seemed more concerned with discovering another potential powerful jedi than he did with the loss of another death star).

Don't ever quote comics or cartoons at me again.

That's not a question of lazy writing. It's something foundational built into the fabric of the universe. Jedi are not the special forces they were in the OT. They had gradually turned into super heroes. Right now each side has two (Rey/Luke v Ren/Snoke), with the rest of the conflict shaping up around those two sides.

again, not an acceptable excuse.

If Rey was suddenly running rampant through the world of Fury Road I would agree with you. But people who are strong in the force are essentially in a class by themselves. that's why the force awakens was never really about whether or not Rey was in any danger.

They are not in a class by themselves in the OT.

It was a hero's journey where she gradually comes to accept who she is. Her conflicts are internal (external to the extent that external events impact that internal struggle).

What a titanic internal struggle (that nonsensically relies on multiple major characters keeping an almost certainly pointless secret):

You're saying I'm a jedi? I suddenly can't deal! I'm gonna go cry in the woods because I'm a crybaby for no reason. Wait, am I a jedi? hmm... oh shit I totally controlled that guy's mind. Guess I am. The epic struggle concludes.

The same can be said of Ren, for that matter, which is one of the reasons why Rey beats him in the end. Rey starts to open up (in that moment) to who she is at the moment that Ren is doubting himself.

Ren just sucks. Agreed.