Red Mosquito

Remember when they were denying bombing the first one.
Now they’re all gone

That doesn't sound true.

dimejinky99 wrote:Remember when they were denying bombing the first one.
Now they’re all gone

Narrator: the hospitals were not all gone

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-ea ... 024-01-17/

"Israeli forces fighting to seize the southern Gaza Strip's main city pounded areas near the biggest hospital still functioning in the enclave on Thursday, sending patients and residents fleeing a battle they feared would lay the city to waste.
The heaviest battle of the year so far was under way in Khan Younis, a city that is sheltering hundreds of thousands of people who fled the north earlier in the war, now in its fourth month."

Cat among the pigeons now

The Israeli Haaretz newspaper interviews the army's 'ethics' chief, Asa Kasher, of Tel Aviv university, about two major incidents on October 7:

1. An Israeli commander ordered a tank to fire into a home in Kibbutz Be'eri knowing that there were 14 Israeli civilians inside, incinerating them.

2. Israeli helicopters fired missiles at dozens of cars with Israeli hostages inside, killing the inhabitants, again often by incinerating them.

In both cases, the official Israeli narrative is that Hamas was responsible for these 'barbaric' acts, supposedly justifying the genocide Israel is carrying out – 'in response' – against the civilian Palestinian population of Gaza.

Haaretz and Kasher ascribe these 'friendly fire' incidents to Israel's classified 'Hannibal directive', which requires soldiers to stop Israelis being taken hostage at all costs. Kasher thinks – probably wrongly – that the directive was misunderstood and misapplied by commanders on the day.

Urging an immediate investigation, Kasher says of the first incident: "How is it possible that a high ranking army official would give a command that so immediately and definitely endangers the life of so many civilians? It's just horrifying."

And he says of the second incident: "This sounds totally unacceptable from every aspect. Against orders. Against procedure. Against values. Against ethics. And possibly against the law."

Efforts to re-examine the Israeli government's October 7 narrative are all over the *Israeli* media. Many of the families of the Israelis killed on October 7 are demanding an investigation.

So how is it possible that the BBC and the rest of the western media keep revisiting the horrors of October 7 but *never* to raise these issues , even though they have been so prominent in the Israeli public space for many weeks?

The only possible answer is that western media outlets are *consciously* censoring this story because it directly conflicts with the West's ideological and strategic agenda. It raises disturbing questions about western complicity in genocide.

Once again, the establishment media's unwillingness to report the real story starkly gives the lie to their claim to be 'free and fearless'.

In truth, they are there to uphold a narrative of western moral and civilisational superiority. They are there to justify the West's wars – and the war industry and resource-grab portfolios that our economies, and the media corporations themselves, are so heavily invested in.

The Haaretz story can be read here: https://archive.ph/Mn6MD

My own discussion of Israel's killing of its own citizens can be read here:

https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/i ... -7-october

Anders wrote:That doesn't sound true.

This was 6 days ago. There are now no functional hospitals left according to sources on the ground.


At least 20 out of 22 hospitals identified by CNN in northern Gaza were damaged or destroyed in the first two months of Israel's war against Hamas, from October 7 to December 7, according to a review of 45 satellite images and around 400 videos from the ground, as well as interviews with doctors, eyewitnesses and ...

The reuters article I linked to is from today.

The world should work towards a one state solution, push Israel to annex the Palestinian areas, and give them full Israeli citizenship.

Anders wrote:The world should work towards a one state solution, push Israel to annex the Palestinian areas, and give them full Israeli citizenship.

Israel would never go for that because it would shift the demographics from 80% Jewish/ 20% Muslim to about 50/50.

The only outcome that seems plausible is Israel annexes all of the land and kills/relocates the Palestinians.

tommy wrote:

Anders wrote:The world should work towards a one state solution, push Israel to annex the Palestinian areas, and give them full Israeli citizenship.

Israel would never go for that because it would shift the demographics from 80% Jewish/ 20% Muslim to about 50/50.

The only outcome that seems plausible is Israel annexes all of the land and kills/relocates the Palestinians.

Demographics is why it hasn’t happened a long time ago. But there is no pressure on Israel to annex, only on an improbable two state solution, that most Palestinians don’t want.

Anders wrote:The world should work towards a one state solution, push Israel to annex the Palestinian areas, and give them full Israeli citizenship.

You normally have a great read in things but you’re miles off base if you really think Palestinians would go for that or Israelis.
Palestinians do work in Israel but little more than slaves. Poorly paid and awful treatment and that’s before the nightmare of having to queue up to get in / out Gaza etc every day. The security check points often see people getting shot by IDF simply for looking in their bag or bending down to pick something up. This happens all the time.

In an ideal world maybe it would work but it won’t work now.

dimejinky99 wrote:

Anders wrote:The world should work towards a one state solution, push Israel to annex the Palestinian areas, and give them full Israeli citizenship.

You normally have a great read in things but you’re miles off base if you really think Palestinians would go for that or Israelis.
Palestinians do work in Israel but little more than slaves. Poorly paid and awful treatment and that’s before the nightmare of having to queue up to get in / out Gaza etc every day. The security check points often see people getting shot by IDF simply for looking in their bag or bending down to pick something up. This happens all the time.

In an ideal world maybe it would work but it won’t work now.

There are already 1,7 million muslims living peacefully in Israel. It is the current situation that makes it so tense and difficult. If the Palestinians were Israeli citizens, they could not be treated differently by the Israeli government.

Most Palestinians do not want a two state solution. Even if they got it, there would likely be a lot of internal conflict, and the area separated into two (and realistically three areas).

That true.

Know what else is true?
There’s no hospitals left in gaza. They’ve all been destroyed by Israel. The same way Israel furiously denied ever bombing the very first hospital.

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-p ... tions-enar

Over the past three months, the Israeli Forces’ all-out assault on the Gaza Strip, Palestine, has drastically diminished the options for people to find medical care. The amount of safe space for organisations to provide healthcare to people is now virtually non-existent. Constant evacuation orders and attacks on health facilities have repeatedly forced organisations such as Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) to evacuate hospitals and leave patients behind.

“We’re gradually being cornered in a very restrictive perimeter in southern Gaza, in Rafah, with dwindling options to offer critical medical assistance, while the needs are desperately growing,” says Thomas Lauvin, MSF project coordinator in Gaza. “As the assault on Gaza has progressed, we have had to evacuate several health facilities in the north of Gaza, then in the Middle Area.”

“Today we are limited to mainly working in the south, because we cannot work elsewhere,” continues Lauvin. “In short, we’re running out of hospitals. We are forced to leave patients behind.”

“Leaving Al-Aqsa hospital [...] was a devastating decision... Drone strikes, sniper fire and bombardments in the close vicinity of the hospital made the space too unsafe to work in.”
ENRICO VALLAPERTA, MSF PROJECT MEDICAL REFERENT IN GAZA
The healthcare system in Gaza has virtually collapsed. The World Health Organization reports that only 13 out of Gaza’s 36 hospitals are still partially functional: nine in the south and four in the north. The two major hospitals in southern Gaza are operating at three times their bed capacity and are running out of basic supplies and fuel.

The Hyperbolic Force meets The Overly Literal Object

Neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis would ever go for a one state solution. For Jewish people to be less than a dominant majority in their Jewish state is a non-starter and I can’t imagine any politician ever running on such a platform. I think Palestinians do want their own state. And it is inevitable because the status quo was always destined to end up here - year 75 of crisis. At some point, as I’ve heard it put, there will have to be a separation. The silver lining in this horrendous situation is that it finally seems like the ways in which Israel - and especially Netanyahu - have been a giant obstacle to any peace process seem obvious to many more people now. Which isn’t to say they had a real partner to work with, but they’ve basically held the cards and power for a couple generations now and have really made things much worse these last 15-20 years.

BurtReynolds wrote:The Hyperbolic Force meets The Overly Literal Object

I think when you are trying to prove a point about someone doing something awful, you get a lot further by not exaggerating. Stick to the truth, and everyone will have to listen.

«In December 2022, support for a two-state solution was 33% among Palestinians, 34% among Israeli Jews, and 60% among Israeli Arabs. 82% of Israeli Jews and 75% of Palestinians believed that the other side would never accept the existence of their independent state.»

«Support for a one-state solution is increasing as Palestinians, frustrated by lack of progress in negotiations aiming to establish the two-state solution, increasingly see the one-state solution as an alternative way forward.»

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL08675346/

"Israeli restrictions have divided the occupied West Bank into 10 economically isolated enclaves, severing financial links and denying Palestinians access to some 50 percent of the land, the World Bank said.

According to the World Bank report, Israeli restrictions deny Palestinians access to large segments of the West Bank, including all areas within the municipal boundaries of settlements, the Jordan Valley, East Jerusalem, restricted roads and other "closed" areas.

These restrictions have "fragmented the territory into ever smaller and more disconnected cantons," the report said. Estimates of the total restricted area are difficult to come by, but it appears to be in excess of 50 percent of the land of the West Bank."

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/isra ... ack-agenda

"The Israeli government plan involves building hundreds of units to link the settlements of Kfar Adumim and Maale Adumim with occupied East Jerusalem in the Israeli-controlled Area C of the West Bank.

The plan would effectively split the West Bank in half, isolating East Jerusalem from Palestinian communities in the West Bank and force Palestinians to make even lengthier detours to travel from one place to another while allowing for settlements housing Israelis to expand."

You can object to the above all you want, but it is still reality. With this and the war in Gaza, peace is looking far from close. If a two state solution was forced in, Israel would not give up the right to control the areas militarily. It just will not give up that. Because it will likely result in a massive war in the future, where they are attacked the heights of the west bank, down towards their flatter land. This is not a personal opinion of mine, it is just fact. Both peoples also view the entire land of Israel and Palestine as one or as theirs.

Also even with a Palestininian state without a military were to be created, with Israel protecting the borders of both states, the conflict would likely continue. The Palestinian areas would very likely be split into at least two (Gaza and the West Bank, but the West Bank is also very close to being split off into two larger areas. Some of that could we worked against in a two state solution, but likely not that much. Israel would not give up a lot of land willingly. You can agree with and sympathise with the Palestinians, you can try to force them through the UN, or maybe a future US President/US government that is not so friendly to Israel. But how far would you realistically get?