Re: Israel & Palestine
Posted: Fri January 19, 2024 5:19 am
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231 ... assaulted/
The video in Stickman's post is from November 2nd.
I know the polling, but there are roughly 7 million Jews and almost 7 million Arabs there. People answer polling questions idealistically. There cannot be a Jewish state without a dominant Jewish majority. A one state solution would end up being true system of apartheid or a truly democratic state that ceases to be Jewish. There is no third option. As stated in that article you posted, Palestinians see a one state solution as their only option - as do many - because Israel has basically carved up the West Bank and they no longer see a two state solution as a viable option. But there is no other way. A one state solution means Israelis and Palestinians live together and make peace, in a fair way, in order to share a country. I think we are waaaaay past that opportunity.Anders wrote:«In December 2022, support for a two-state solution was 33% among Palestinians, 34% among Israeli Jews, and 60% among Israeli Arabs. 82% of Israeli Jews and 75% of Palestinians believed that the other side would never accept the existence of their independent state.»
«Support for a one-state solution is increasing as Palestinians, frustrated by lack of progress in negotiations aiming to establish the two-state solution, increasingly see the one-state solution as an alternative way forward.»
It is possible the state seizes to be Jewish, which is why Israel has not done this a long time ago. Apartheid I think is unlikely in a one state solution, as there are already 1,7 million Muslims in Israel, that are not living in apartheid. But at the moment there is no international pressure on a one state solution, just some on an unrealistic two state solution.Rob wrote:I know the polling, but there are roughly 7 million Jews and almost 7 million Arabs there. People answer polling questions idealistically. There cannot be a Jewish state without a dominant Jewish majority. A one state solution would end up being true system of apartheid or a truly democratic state that ceases to be Jewish. There is no third option. As stated in that article you posted, Palestinians see a one state solution as their only option - as do many - because Israel has basically carved up the West Bank and they no longer see a two state solution as a viable option. But there is no other way. A one state solution means Israelis and Palestinians live together and make peace, in a fair way, in order to share a country. I think we are waaaaay past that opportunity.Anders wrote:«In December 2022, support for a two-state solution was 33% among Palestinians, 34% among Israeli Jews, and 60% among Israeli Arabs. 82% of Israeli Jews and 75% of Palestinians believed that the other side would never accept the existence of their independent state.»
«Support for a one-state solution is increasing as Palestinians, frustrated by lack of progress in negotiations aiming to establish the two-state solution, increasingly see the one-state solution as an alternative way forward.»
History tells us a one state solution is not in the interest of peace in the region and I agree with Rob here except on one point and that is that Israel did force a sizable population of it's citizens to leave Gaza in the mid-2000s despite large scale investment in housing and infrastructure there, so it's not out of the question that given the right conditions the same thing could be repeated in the West Bank. The Palestinians would have to offer something pretty significant though as no offer of peace or a ceasefire can be taken seriously after 07.Oct.Anders wrote:It is possible the state seizes to be Jewish, which is why Israel has not done this a long time ago. Apartheid I think is unlikely in a one state solution, as there are already 1,7 million Muslims in Israel, that are not living in apartheid. But at the moment there is no international pressure on a one state solution, just some on an unrealistic two state solution.Rob wrote:I know the polling, but there are roughly 7 million Jews and almost 7 million Arabs there. People answer polling questions idealistically. There cannot be a Jewish state without a dominant Jewish majority. A one state solution would end up being true system of apartheid or a truly democratic state that ceases to be Jewish. There is no third option. As stated in that article you posted, Palestinians see a one state solution as their only option - as do many - because Israel has basically carved up the West Bank and they no longer see a two state solution as a viable option. But there is no other way. A one state solution means Israelis and Palestinians live together and make peace, in a fair way, in order to share a country. I think we are waaaaay past that opportunity.Anders wrote:«In December 2022, support for a two-state solution was 33% among Palestinians, 34% among Israeli Jews, and 60% among Israeli Arabs. 82% of Israeli Jews and 75% of Palestinians believed that the other side would never accept the existence of their independent state.»
«Support for a one-state solution is increasing as Palestinians, frustrated by lack of progress in negotiations aiming to establish the two-state solution, increasingly see the one-state solution as an alternative way forward.»
I don’t think we disagree. I’m stating what Israel has done in the West Bank but as you point out, it can undo this, and it needs to. And I know there are many, many senior leaders in Israel who know this because they have said so. There is a group in Israel called “Commanders for the security of Israel” (or something like that) comprised of former generals and their counterparts in the IDF. They have a plan for this already. An entire list of the things Israel can do no matter what help, if any, Palestinians provide. A plan to turn around and slowly walk a lot of the last 20 years back. Their views are that Israeli policy (and Netanyahu especially) does nothing but perpetuate and worsen any chance for peace. Their view is that a 2 state solution along 1967 borders are the only way.Bi_3 wrote:History tells us a one state solution is not in the interest of peace in the region and I agree with Rob here except on one point and that is that Israel did force a sizable population of it's citizens to leave Gaza in the mid-2000s despite large scale investment in housing and infrastructure there, so it's not out of the question that given the right conditions the same thing could be repeated in the West Bank. The Palestinians would have to offer something pretty significant though as no offer of peace or a ceasefire can be taken seriously after 07.Oct.Anders wrote:It is possible the state seizes to be Jewish, which is why Israel has not done this a long time ago. Apartheid I think is unlikely in a one state solution, as there are already 1,7 million Muslims in Israel, that are not living in apartheid. But at the moment there is no international pressure on a one state solution, just some on an unrealistic two state solution.Rob wrote:I know the polling, but there are roughly 7 million Jews and almost 7 million Arabs there. People answer polling questions idealistically. There cannot be a Jewish state without a dominant Jewish majority. A one state solution would end up being true system of apartheid or a truly democratic state that ceases to be Jewish. There is no third option. As stated in that article you posted, Palestinians see a one state solution as their only option - as do many - because Israel has basically carved up the West Bank and they no longer see a two state solution as a viable option. But there is no other way. A one state solution means Israelis and Palestinians live together and make peace, in a fair way, in order to share a country. I think we are waaaaay past that opportunity.Anders wrote:«In December 2022, support for a two-state solution was 33% among Palestinians, 34% among Israeli Jews, and 60% among Israeli Arabs. 82% of Israeli Jews and 75% of Palestinians believed that the other side would never accept the existence of their independent state.»
«Support for a one-state solution is increasing as Palestinians, frustrated by lack of progress in negotiations aiming to establish the two-state solution, increasingly see the one-state solution as an alternative way forward.»
Anders wrote: