Boston Red Sox Thread

[matt reeder]

I'm not sure if you guys have watched either Joe Kelly or Allen Craig aside from last year's World Series, but both are having pretty terrible years. Craig in general has been worse than terrible this year. I think a change of scenery will help him (I'm not sure he thinks this though; the trade apparently gutted him; he wouldn't even talk to the media he was so upset) and maybe a different hitting coach can help him recover some of his batting form. When he's healthy he's a hell of a hitter, but not much of a defender (minus 1.5 WAR the past two years or runner (expect at least a couple of TOOTBLANs before the end of the year). That being said, I'm going to miss him a ton. He's a really great guy and he really loved being a Cardinal.

As for Kelly, he throws really hard but he has command issues. His numbers for last year look great but a lot of it was smoke and mirrors. He doesn't have a real out pitch aside from his fastball (though some of his secondary stuff looked good last night, at least at first) but his fastball is really good. He's still young so there's a lot of room for improvement if you can get his command right. He's also a really fun guy, and everybody on the Cards really loved him. Oh, and he's also fast as hell. Hopefully you'll get to see him run - he was legitimately one of the fastest players in the NL, which is weird but totally true.

I hate this trade even though I know it will probably help the Cards this year. John Lackey is a turd.

thanks for this, i didn't really know the two new sox (other than last year and their seasons on paper this year). I myself like the trade b/c it gives the sox known guys (each w/ realistic potential), rather than some kid who's going to be in A-ball for two years and then be dealt (but projected/imagined potential).

Sure. I'm a lifelong Cardinals fan and I watch probably 100+ Cardinals games a year. Craig is in a really, really deep slump but if you can get him going I think he'll do awesome in Fenway. You have to remember that Busch is a pitcher's park, although Craig has a really low OPS+ this year (79) that tells you that he's been terrible even given the great pitching in the NL.

The shitty thing about really getting attached to players (and I really liked both of these guys, far beyond their actual talent) is that sometimes they get traded for assholes. I am not looking forward to cheering for John Lackey, even though he will probably help the Cardinals significantly.

As for Joe Kelly's speed, you should watch this: http://m.mlb.com/video/v23293703/ladstl ... /?c_id=mlb

[Coach]

actually, all but Hammel and McCarthy carry draft-pick compensation, so never mind the other four guys if they're qualified offers (which I'm sure they will be).

I read somewhere that if the Sox finish with a bad record (10th worst or even more worst) that those teams don't have to give up that pick.

[elliseamos]

actually, all but Hammel and McCarthy carry draft-pick compensation, so never mind the other four guys if they're qualified offers (which I'm sure they will be).

I read somewhere that if the Sox finish with a bad record (10th worst or even more worst) that those teams don't have to give up that pick.

TANKVILLE, MASS!! YAY!!!

[numbers]

Man, I fucking love seeing Allen Craig in a Sox uniform. This guy has been one of my favorite non-Sox players in the league for a couple years now.

[elliseamos]

Tough trade, Boston

True but they had Mo Vaughn. Both taken in the same draft class by the Sox which is crazy. Vaughn oddly enough was on the same college team as Craig Biggio.

IIRC, at the time Bagwell was a 3B and it was actually Tim Naehring that they chose to keep over Bagwell, not Vaughn. So it's pretty terrible.

Yes I think you are right. I guess I was saying comparing Bagwell to Vaughn at least for a few years there was a push. But the way you put it comparing Bags to Naehring....that makes it much worse haha. That dude was always hurt. I did love Ellis Burks growing up.

Burks was a good one. I was really happy he was part of the curse breaking team in '04.

but let's get some things clear:

Bagwell was selected in the fourth round of the 1989 draft by the Boston Red Sox. On August 30, 1990 the Red Sox traded him to the Houston Astros for relief pitcher Larry Andersen to gear up for their playoff run.

The trade is now considered one of the most one-sided trades in baseball history; in 2002 ESPN's readers named it the second-worst trade in sports history, behind only the Red Sox trading Babe Ruth to the Yankees.[1] Although Andersen pitched well down the stretch in 1990 (allowing three runs in 22 innings of relief), and helped the Red Sox win the AL East division title on the last day of the season, Boston was swept in the American League Championship Series by Oakland. They then lost Andersen after the season when he was declared a free agent due to the second collusion settlement.

According to the Red Sox' then-general manager, Lou Gorman, the trade made sense at the time. In his 2005 autobiography, One Pitch from Glory, Gorman didn't think Bagwell could play third base– his position during most of his minor-league career. Bagwell had seen some time at first base, but he was blocked from that position by Mo Vaughn. He was also looking to strengthen the Red Sox' bullpen, and had been assured by MLB's player relations committee that Andersen would not be lost to new-look free agency.[2] The Red Sox also had a logjam at third base; Tim Naehring and Scott Cooper were actually ahead of Bagwell on the organization's depth chart at the position.[3] However, the Red Sox didn't get nearly enough in return. Cooper and Naehring were both out of baseball by 1997, and as mentioned above Andersen was lost to new-look free agency after just over a month in Boston.

so the sox barely knew bagwell as a pro, they didn't think he'd play 3B, they had two guys ahead of bagwell within the organization if he was going to stay at 3B, and lastly, the team got a good return in the trade only to see the rules change and the guy walk.

it's not the Heathcliff Slocumb trade, but it was certainly a missed opportunity.

[BigRedLedbetter]

Tough trade, Boston

True but they had Mo Vaughn. Both taken in the same draft class by the Sox which is crazy. Vaughn oddly enough was on the same college team as Craig Biggio.

IIRC, at the time Bagwell was a 3B and it was actually Tim Naehring that they chose to keep over Bagwell, not Vaughn. So it's pretty terrible.

Yes I think you are right. I guess I was saying comparing Bagwell to Vaughn at least for a few years there was a push. But the way you put it comparing Bags to Naehring....that makes it much worse haha. That dude was always hurt. I did love Ellis Burks growing up.

Burks was a good one. I was really happy he was part of the curse breaking team in '04.

but let's get some things clear:

Bagwell was selected in the fourth round of the 1989 draft by the Boston Red Sox. On August 30, 1990 the Red Sox traded him to the Houston Astros for relief pitcher Larry Andersen to gear up for their playoff run.

The trade is now considered one of the most one-sided trades in baseball history; in 2002 ESPN's readers named it the second-worst trade in sports history, behind only the Red Sox trading Babe Ruth to the Yankees.[1] Although Andersen pitched well down the stretch in 1990 (allowing three runs in 22 innings of relief), and helped the Red Sox win the AL East division title on the last day of the season, Boston was swept in the American League Championship Series by Oakland. They then lost Andersen after the season when he was declared a free agent due to the second collusion settlement.

According to the Red Sox' then-general manager, Lou Gorman, the trade made sense at the time. In his 2005 autobiography, One Pitch from Glory, Gorman didn't think Bagwell could play third base– his position during most of his minor-league career. Bagwell had seen some time at first base, but he was blocked from that position by Mo Vaughn. He was also looking to strengthen the Red Sox' bullpen, and had been assured by MLB's player relations committee that Andersen would not be lost to new-look free agency.[2] The Red Sox also had a logjam at third base; Tim Naehring and Scott Cooper were actually ahead of Bagwell on the organization's depth chart at the position.[3] However, the Red Sox didn't get nearly enough in return. Cooper and Naehring were both out of baseball by 1997, and as mentioned above Andersen was lost to new-look free agency after just over a month in Boston.

so the sox barely knew bagwell as a pro, they didn't think he'd play 3B, they had two guys ahead of bagwell within the organization if he was going to stay at 3B, and lastly, the team got a good return in the trade only to see the rules change and the guy walk.

it's not the Heathcliff Slocumb trade, but it was certainly a missed opportunity.

I totally forgot Burks was on the 04 team.

The Slocumb trade? Haha nice job Seattle.

[elliseamos]

Tough trade, Boston

True but they had Mo Vaughn. Both taken in the same draft class by the Sox which is crazy. Vaughn oddly enough was on the same college team as Craig Biggio.

IIRC, at the time Bagwell was a 3B and it was actually Tim Naehring that they chose to keep over Bagwell, not Vaughn. So it's pretty terrible.

Yes I think you are right. I guess I was saying comparing Bagwell to Vaughn at least for a few years there was a push. But the way you put it comparing Bags to Naehring....that makes it much worse haha. That dude was always hurt. I did love Ellis Burks growing up.

Burks was a good one. I was really happy he was part of the curse breaking team in '04.

but let's get some things clear:

Bagwell was selected in the fourth round of the 1989 draft by the Boston Red Sox. On August 30, 1990 the Red Sox traded him to the Houston Astros for relief pitcher Larry Andersen to gear up for their playoff run.

The trade is now considered one of the most one-sided trades in baseball history; in 2002 ESPN's readers named it the second-worst trade in sports history, behind only the Red Sox trading Babe Ruth to the Yankees.[1] Although Andersen pitched well down the stretch in 1990 (allowing three runs in 22 innings of relief), and helped the Red Sox win the AL East division title on the last day of the season, Boston was swept in the American League Championship Series by Oakland. They then lost Andersen after the season when he was declared a free agent due to the second collusion settlement.

According to the Red Sox' then-general manager, Lou Gorman, the trade made sense at the time. In his 2005 autobiography, One Pitch from Glory, Gorman didn't think Bagwell could play third base– his position during most of his minor-league career. Bagwell had seen some time at first base, but he was blocked from that position by Mo Vaughn. He was also looking to strengthen the Red Sox' bullpen, and had been assured by MLB's player relations committee that Andersen would not be lost to new-look free agency.[2] The Red Sox also had a logjam at third base; Tim Naehring and Scott Cooper were actually ahead of Bagwell on the organization's depth chart at the position.[3] However, the Red Sox didn't get nearly enough in return. Cooper and Naehring were both out of baseball by 1997, and as mentioned above Andersen was lost to new-look free agency after just over a month in Boston.

so the sox barely knew bagwell as a pro, they didn't think he'd play 3B, they had two guys ahead of bagwell within the organization if he was going to stay at 3B, and lastly, the team got a good return in the trade only to see the rules change and the guy walk.

it's not the Heathcliff Slocumb trade, but it was certainly a missed opportunity.

I totally forgot Burks was on the 04 team.

The Slocumb trade? Haha nice job Seattle.

Talk about a horrible franchise. Over the course of 3 seasons (I think) they:

Traded Randy Johnson for (minor leaguers) Freddy Garcia, Carlos Guillen, and John Halama.
Traded Griffey for Brett Tomko, Mike Cameron, and minor leaguers Antonio Perez and Jake Meyer
Then let ARod walk.

Awful.

[@SkitchP]

Honestly, Garcia was pretty good and still up and down in the big leagues. Guillen spent 2 or 3 years as the best SS in the AL (unfortunately, after the dealt him to detroit).

[elliseamos]

Honestly, Garcia was pretty good and still up and down in the big leagues. Guillen spent 2 or 3 years as the best SS in the AL (unfortunately, after the dealt him to detroit).

But that's what you get for Randy Johnson? I can understand being limited to whatever Cinci had to offer (b/c Griffey had to home), but three prospects for The Big Unit and nothing for ARod?

[@SkitchP]

Honestly, Garcia was pretty good and still up and down in the big leagues. Guillen spent 2 or 3 years as the best SS in the AL (unfortunately, after the dealt him to detroit).

But that's what you get for Randy Johnson? I can understand being limited to whatever Cinci had to offer (b/c Griffey had to home), but three prospects for The Big Unit and nothing for ARod?

If I recall, those were 3 TOP prospects for Johnson.

Arod was a free agent. and they were contending for a playoff spot in A-rods last year. Can't deal your best player when you think you're going to contend for the division

[@SkitchP]

heck, they tied for first that year and just missed the playoffs due to losing the season series to oakland

[elliseamos]

heck, they tied for first that year and just missed the playoffs due to losing the season series to oakland

maybe they could have used some help from the Randy Johnson trade?

[@SkitchP]

heck, they tied for first that year and just missed the playoffs due to losing the season series to oakland

maybe they could have used some help from the Randy Johnson trade?

In 2001 (the year after they let A-Rod Walk) they were the best team in baseball during the regular season with 116 wins. Garcia went 18-6 with a 3.05 ERA.

The deals of Johnson and letting A-Rod go weren't really bad moves

[elliseamos]

In 2001 (the year after they let A-Rod Walk) they were the best team in baseball during the regular season with 116 wins. Garcia went 18-6 with a 3.05 ERA.

welp.

[philpritchard]

Griffey in 945 games with the Reds - 9.9 WAR for $95 million
Cameron in 610 games with the Mariners - 19.3 WAR for $17 million

[BigRedLedbetter]

Griffey in 945 games with the Reds - 9.9 WAR for $95 million
Cameron in 610 games with the Mariners - 19.3 WAR for $17 million

Wow. I knew KGJR struggled in Cincy but not THAT much. Had he stayed healthy he'd have like 800 bombs.

Get ready to feel old.....Cameron's kid is going to probably be a high first round pick next year

Tom Gordon with a kid in the show and one a few years away makes me feel ancient. I still have a Tom Gordon KC Royals Starting Lineup.

Gordon was Red Sock so this can stay here!

[elliseamos]

Griffey in 945 games with the Reds - 9.9 WAR for $95 million
Cameron in 610 games with the Mariners - 19.3 WAR for $17 million

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/revisiti ... y-a-heist/

I still say, Seattle screwed themselves in 1999 by not paying Randy. Especially considering the money they were willing to give Griffey a year later.

[numbers]

I might be wrong, but I think Halama was perceived as the key piece Seattle got in that trade.

[elliseamos]

the more i read up on those two trades, the more i think seattle did well for themselves.

i need to know what happened to the 116 win seattle team? where did they go wrong after that season?

[Simple Torture]

the more i read up on those two trades, the more i think seattle did well for themselves.

i need to know what happened to the 116 win seattle team? where did they go wrong after that season?

The lineups weren't much different between the 2001 and 2002 edition of the Mariners (and they 93 wins in both 2002 and 2003)...I think the big difference was that Oakland exploded (103 wins in 2002, 96 in 2003) and then you had the era where the AL WC came out of the East every year, and then the Angels peaked...they basically had their one shot that year and blew it.