Red Mosquito

elliseamos wrote:

matt reeder wrote:I'm not sure if you guys have watched either Joe Kelly or Allen Craig aside from last year's World Series, but both are having pretty terrible years. Craig in general has been worse than terrible this year. I think a change of scenery will help him (I'm not sure he thinks this though; the trade apparently gutted him; he wouldn't even talk to the media he was so upset) and maybe a different hitting coach can help him recover some of his batting form. When he's healthy he's a hell of a hitter, but not much of a defender (minus 1.5 WAR the past two years or runner (expect at least a couple of TOOTBLANs before the end of the year). That being said, I'm going to miss him a ton. He's a really great guy and he really loved being a Cardinal.

As for Kelly, he throws really hard but he has command issues. His numbers for last year look great but a lot of it was smoke and mirrors. He doesn't have a real out pitch aside from his fastball (though some of his secondary stuff looked good last night, at least at first) but his fastball is really good. He's still young so there's a lot of room for improvement if you can get his command right. He's also a really fun guy, and everybody on the Cards really loved him. Oh, and he's also fast as hell. Hopefully you'll get to see him run - he was legitimately one of the fastest players in the NL, which is weird but totally true.

I hate this trade even though I know it will probably help the Cards this year. John Lackey is a turd.

thanks for this, i didn't really know the two new sox (other than last year and their seasons on paper this year). I myself like the trade b/c it gives the sox known guys (each w/ realistic potential), rather than some kid who's going to be in A-ball for two years and then be dealt (but projected/imagined potential).

elliseamos wrote:actually, all but Hammel and McCarthy carry draft-pick compensation, so never mind the other four guys if they're qualified offers (which I'm sure they will be).

Coach wrote:

elliseamos wrote:actually, all but Hammel and McCarthy carry draft-pick compensation, so never mind the other four guys if they're qualified offers (which I'm sure they will be).

I read somewhere that if the Sox finish with a bad record (10th worst or even more worst) that those teams don't have to give up that pick.

BigRedLedbetter wrote:

numbers wrote:

BigRedLedbetter wrote:

Coach wrote:Tough trade, Boston

True but they had Mo Vaughn. Both taken in the same draft class by the Sox which is crazy. Vaughn oddly enough was on the same college team as Craig Biggio.

IIRC, at the time Bagwell was a 3B and it was actually Tim Naehring that they chose to keep over Bagwell, not Vaughn. So it's pretty terrible.

Yes I think you are right. I guess I was saying comparing Bagwell to Vaughn at least for a few years there was a push. But the way you put it comparing Bags to Naehring....that makes it much worse haha. That dude was always hurt. I did love Ellis Burks growing up.

wikipedia wrote:Bagwell was selected in the fourth round of the 1989 draft by the Boston Red Sox. On August 30, 1990 the Red Sox traded him to the Houston Astros for relief pitcher Larry Andersen to gear up for their playoff run.

The trade is now considered one of the most one-sided trades in baseball history; in 2002 ESPN's readers named it the second-worst trade in sports history, behind only the Red Sox trading Babe Ruth to the Yankees.[1] Although Andersen pitched well down the stretch in 1990 (allowing three runs in 22 innings of relief), and helped the Red Sox win the AL East division title on the last day of the season, Boston was swept in the American League Championship Series by Oakland. They then lost Andersen after the season when he was declared a free agent due to the second collusion settlement.

According to the Red Sox' then-general manager, Lou Gorman, the trade made sense at the time. In his 2005 autobiography, One Pitch from Glory, Gorman didn't think Bagwell could play third base– his position during most of his minor-league career. Bagwell had seen some time at first base, but he was blocked from that position by Mo Vaughn. He was also looking to strengthen the Red Sox' bullpen, and had been assured by MLB's player relations committee that Andersen would not be lost to new-look free agency.[2] The Red Sox also had a logjam at third base; Tim Naehring and Scott Cooper were actually ahead of Bagwell on the organization's depth chart at the position.[3] However, the Red Sox didn't get nearly enough in return. Cooper and Naehring were both out of baseball by 1997, and as mentioned above Andersen was lost to new-look free agency after just over a month in Boston.

elliseamos wrote:

BigRedLedbetter wrote:

numbers wrote:

BigRedLedbetter wrote:

Coach wrote:Tough trade, Boston

True but they had Mo Vaughn. Both taken in the same draft class by the Sox which is crazy. Vaughn oddly enough was on the same college team as Craig Biggio.

IIRC, at the time Bagwell was a 3B and it was actually Tim Naehring that they chose to keep over Bagwell, not Vaughn. So it's pretty terrible.

Yes I think you are right. I guess I was saying comparing Bagwell to Vaughn at least for a few years there was a push. But the way you put it comparing Bags to Naehring....that makes it much worse haha. That dude was always hurt. I did love Ellis Burks growing up.

Burks was a good one. I was really happy he was part of the curse breaking team in '04.

but let's get some things clear:

wikipedia wrote:Bagwell was selected in the fourth round of the 1989 draft by the Boston Red Sox. On August 30, 1990 the Red Sox traded him to the Houston Astros for relief pitcher Larry Andersen to gear up for their playoff run.

The trade is now considered one of the most one-sided trades in baseball history; in 2002 ESPN's readers named it the second-worst trade in sports history, behind only the Red Sox trading Babe Ruth to the Yankees.[1] Although Andersen pitched well down the stretch in 1990 (allowing three runs in 22 innings of relief), and helped the Red Sox win the AL East division title on the last day of the season, Boston was swept in the American League Championship Series by Oakland. They then lost Andersen after the season when he was declared a free agent due to the second collusion settlement.

According to the Red Sox' then-general manager, Lou Gorman, the trade made sense at the time. In his 2005 autobiography, One Pitch from Glory, Gorman didn't think Bagwell could play third base– his position during most of his minor-league career. Bagwell had seen some time at first base, but he was blocked from that position by Mo Vaughn. He was also looking to strengthen the Red Sox' bullpen, and had been assured by MLB's player relations committee that Andersen would not be lost to new-look free agency.[2] The Red Sox also had a logjam at third base; Tim Naehring and Scott Cooper were actually ahead of Bagwell on the organization's depth chart at the position.[3] However, the Red Sox didn't get nearly enough in return. Cooper and Naehring were both out of baseball by 1997, and as mentioned above Andersen was lost to new-look free agency after just over a month in Boston.

so the sox barely knew bagwell as a pro, they didn't think he'd play 3B, they had two guys ahead of bagwell within the organization if he was going to stay at 3B, and lastly, the team got a good return in the trade only to see the rules change and the guy walk.

it's not the Heathcliff Slocumb trade, but it was certainly a missed opportunity.

BigRedLedbetter wrote:

elliseamos wrote:

BigRedLedbetter wrote:

numbers wrote:

BigRedLedbetter wrote:

Coach wrote:Tough trade, Boston

True but they had Mo Vaughn. Both taken in the same draft class by the Sox which is crazy. Vaughn oddly enough was on the same college team as Craig Biggio.

IIRC, at the time Bagwell was a 3B and it was actually Tim Naehring that they chose to keep over Bagwell, not Vaughn. So it's pretty terrible.

Yes I think you are right. I guess I was saying comparing Bagwell to Vaughn at least for a few years there was a push. But the way you put it comparing Bags to Naehring....that makes it much worse haha. That dude was always hurt. I did love Ellis Burks growing up.

Burks was a good one. I was really happy he was part of the curse breaking team in '04.

but let's get some things clear:

wikipedia wrote:Bagwell was selected in the fourth round of the 1989 draft by the Boston Red Sox. On August 30, 1990 the Red Sox traded him to the Houston Astros for relief pitcher Larry Andersen to gear up for their playoff run.

The trade is now considered one of the most one-sided trades in baseball history; in 2002 ESPN's readers named it the second-worst trade in sports history, behind only the Red Sox trading Babe Ruth to the Yankees.[1] Although Andersen pitched well down the stretch in 1990 (allowing three runs in 22 innings of relief), and helped the Red Sox win the AL East division title on the last day of the season, Boston was swept in the American League Championship Series by Oakland. They then lost Andersen after the season when he was declared a free agent due to the second collusion settlement.

According to the Red Sox' then-general manager, Lou Gorman, the trade made sense at the time. In his 2005 autobiography, One Pitch from Glory, Gorman didn't think Bagwell could play third base– his position during most of his minor-league career. Bagwell had seen some time at first base, but he was blocked from that position by Mo Vaughn. He was also looking to strengthen the Red Sox' bullpen, and had been assured by MLB's player relations committee that Andersen would not be lost to new-look free agency.[2] The Red Sox also had a logjam at third base; Tim Naehring and Scott Cooper were actually ahead of Bagwell on the organization's depth chart at the position.[3] However, the Red Sox didn't get nearly enough in return. Cooper and Naehring were both out of baseball by 1997, and as mentioned above Andersen was lost to new-look free agency after just over a month in Boston.

so the sox barely knew bagwell as a pro, they didn't think he'd play 3B, they had two guys ahead of bagwell within the organization if he was going to stay at 3B, and lastly, the team got a good return in the trade only to see the rules change and the guy walk.

it's not the Heathcliff Slocumb trade, but it was certainly a missed opportunity.

I totally forgot Burks was on the 04 team.

The Slocumb trade? Haha nice job Seattle.

@SkitchP wrote:Honestly, Garcia was pretty good and still up and down in the big leagues. Guillen spent 2 or 3 years as the best SS in the AL (unfortunately, after the dealt him to detroit).

elliseamos wrote:

@SkitchP wrote:Honestly, Garcia was pretty good and still up and down in the big leagues. Guillen spent 2 or 3 years as the best SS in the AL (unfortunately, after the dealt him to detroit).

But that's what you get for Randy Johnson? I can understand being limited to whatever Cinci had to offer (b/c Griffey had to home), but three prospects for The Big Unit and nothing for ARod?

@SkitchP wrote:heck, they tied for first that year and just missed the playoffs due to losing the season series to oakland

elliseamos wrote:

@SkitchP wrote:heck, they tied for first that year and just missed the playoffs due to losing the season series to oakland

maybe they could have used some help from the Randy Johnson trade?

@SkitchP wrote:In 2001 (the year after they let A-Rod Walk) they were the best team in baseball during the regular season with 116 wins. Garcia went 18-6 with a 3.05 ERA.

philpritchard wrote:Griffey in 945 games with the Reds - 9.9 WAR for $95 million
Cameron in 610 games with the Mariners - 19.3 WAR for $17 million

BigRedLedbetter wrote:

philpritchard wrote:Griffey in 945 games with the Reds - 9.9 WAR for $95 million
Cameron in 610 games with the Mariners - 19.3 WAR for $17 million

elliseamos wrote:the more i read up on those two trades, the more i think seattle did well for themselves.

i need to know what happened to the 116 win seattle team? where did they go wrong after that season?