Not worthy of a thread News

[@SkitchP]

So, i guess if that's grosser, then I guess so.


Basically what I'm concerned about is that is unquestionably in the "right" (like not wrong side, not the the right v left thing) has become so effective in shouting down dissenting opinion from a (mostly justified) moral high ground on a lot of issues, that a lot of the legitimate discussion and debate has been washed away. Being right all day is great, but if it's not practical in the society we function in, what good does it do? That's where discussion, open debate and level headedness need to play a role in all sorts of human rights issues, from gender issues to race to sexual identity and orientation.

Saying that these celebrities could have been more careful is not the same as blaming them, or absolving the criminals of their actual actions. But it seems the only two opinions that are allowed to exist are

OH MY GOD THESE CELEBRITIES WERE SO VIOLATED AND IF YOU POINT OUT ANY OTHER ELEMENT YOURE PART OF THE PROBLEM BECAUSE YOURE BLAMING THE VICTIM

or

MAN JLAWS HOTT

When anyone starts dealing too much in absolutes, things tend to take a turn very quickly.

[Rangi Guy]

So, i guess if that's grosser, then I guess so.


Basically what I'm concerned about is that is unquestionably in the "right" (like not wrong side, not the the right v left thing) has become so effective in shouting down dissenting opinion from a (mostly justified) moral high ground on a lot of issues, that a lot of the legitimate discussion and debate has been washed away. Being right all day is great, but if it's not practical in the society we function in, what good does it do? That's where discussion, open debate and level headedness need to play a role in all sorts of human rights issues, from gender issues to race to sexual identity and orientation.

Saying that these celebrities could have been more careful is not the same as blaming them, or absolving the criminals of their actual actions. But it seems the only two opinions that are allowed to exist are

OH MY GOD THESE CELEBRITIES WERE SO VIOLATED AND IF YOU POINT OUT ANY OTHER ELEMENT YOURE PART OF THE PROBLEM BECAUSE YOURE BLAMING THE VICTIM

or

MAN JLAWS HOTT

When anyone starts dealing too much in absolutes, things tend to take a turn very quickly.

Stop making so much sense - this is RM.

[Norah]

Sure, but we also live in a society that looks for the easiest way to address large scale problems. If when stories of sexually charged crimes against women come up and we focus on what women can do to keep themselves from being victimized, we inevitably take away from the drastically needed discussion on why we live in a society where for a lot of people, even if they won't admit it, think the girl had it coming.

We spend a lot of time and energy teaching women how not to be raped/assualted/victimized, but not nearly enough time teaching men and boys how not to do it. And it seems like a lot of the time the people talking about risk prevention are actively trying to avoid the other side of the coin.

And when we look at these pictures, when we start making jokes about them (all things i'm 100% guilty of), we lend ourselves to the trivialization of the crime itself.

All the things you've said make sense, and are applicable on a micro level. But on the macro, there's a very good reason why the "women should protect themself" voices are starting to get drowned out by the "don't blame the victim" voice.

[@SkitchP]

Sure, but we also live in a society that looks for the easiest way to address large scale problems. If when stories of sexually charged crimes against women come up and we focus on what women can do to keep themselves from being victimized, we inevitably take away from the drastically needed discussion on why we live in a society where for a lot of people, even if they won't admit it, think the girl had it coming.

We spend a lot of time and energy teaching women how not to be raped/assualted/victimized, but not nearly enough time teaching men and boys how not to do it. And it seems like a lot of the time the people talking about risk prevention are actively trying to avoid the other side of the coin.

And when we look at these pictures, when we start making jokes about them (all things i'm 100% guilty of), we lend ourselves to the trivialization of the crime itself.

All the things you've said make sense, and are applicable on a micro level. But on the macro, there's a very good reason why the "women should protect themself" voices are starting to get drowned out by the "don't blame the victim" voice.

Drowning out any voice with a legitimate point is dangerous.

[broken iris]

Drowning out any voice with a legitimate point is dangerous.

It's actually quite harmless.

[BurtReynolds]

Backspunk would be a good late nineties band name.

[Bammer]

J Law is hot.

[broken iris]

Sure, but we also live in a society that looks for the easiest way to address large scale problems. If when stories of sexually charged crimes against women come up and we focus on what women can do to keep themselves from being victimized, we inevitably take away from the drastically needed discussion on why we live in a society where for a lot of people, even if they won't admit it, think the girl had it coming.

We spend a lot of time and energy teaching women how not to be raped/assualted/victimized, but not nearly enough time teaching men and boys how not to do it. And it seems like a lot of the time the people talking about risk prevention are actively trying to avoid the other side of the coin.

And when we look at these pictures, when we start making jokes about them (all things i'm 100% guilty of), we lend ourselves to the trivialization of the crime itself.

All the things you've said make sense, and are applicable on a micro level. But on the macro, there's a very good reason why the "women should protect themself" voices are starting to get drowned out by the "don't blame the victim" voice.

While I don't disagree on any particular point, and I had something similar typed out and didn't submit it, I tend to think Skitch has an equally valid point on a "macro" scale.

First, we are in total agreement about the mistakes society makes when teaching people about sexually driven crimes. Teaching people not to commit sex crimes is very important and we avoid it because it's difficult. Agree. I also agree we will never achieve a world where people are safe to express their sexuality as they see fit without fear of assault, harassment, or violation unless we actually try to. Same page. And joking about the pictures certainly does trivialize the crime and it's effects on the victims. Totally agree and like you I am not casting stones here, I looked at some of the pics and have made jokes about the situation as well. And I did those knowing full well that parts of me tried to two-bit rationalize it like so many others; "well, they are out there now, damage done, what does it hurt for me to look after most everyone else I know (male and female) already has?", "it's just the media white knighting little blonde girls to avoid recognizing the debased, "sex sells" society they helped create, same as ever" or "if it had been dudes no one would have cared, why should I?" I'd like to think better judgement won out in the end, but it was a very "broken iris" moment.

But on your next bit, I think Skitch was making a valid point about the bigger picture and the need, and it is a need, to put forth the effort to achieve what should be does not mean we can deny the reality of what is. The momentum of opinion towards shaming the misogynistic "dumb rich hoes shouldn't be doesing that" stance, and the fact that society already spends so much time on risk, doesn't mean that continually educating about risks in cases like this is not equally as important, and helping teach people to avoid situations that dramatically increase the likelihood of victimization should not be confused with victim blaming should they fall into such a circumstance and it risks... here we go... creating a situation where people will intentionally put themselves in harm's way because they believe the moral high ground will protect them.

[McParadigm]

And on the topic of macro-scaling this discussion, I think the misogyny in question is really just a part of a larger male behavioral trend ranging from the late 60's onward...one that includes an escalating embrace/appreciation of violence and risk-taking, female-degradation and abuse imagery, responsibility avoidance, and pleasure-addict escapism through media or substance.

And, there again, when these things get discussed in a public setting, the question is never posed as "what forces might be causing such a substantial population-level shift?" Rather, it takes the form of either pretending that one or more of these topics exists in a vaccuum, or as a very gently phrased version of the question "What is wrong with people?"

Which, of course, is not a way to learn anything.

[Kaius]

Why does the modern man enjoy porn so much?

[BurtReynolds]

Probably the same reason modern full grown ass men collect Pokemon.

[Kaius]

Which is?

[ABNorman]

The answer may surprise you.

[E.H. Ruddock]

Where's mecca?

[surfndestroy]

And on the topic of macro-scaling this discussion, I think the misogyny in question is really just a part of a larger male behavioral trend ranging from the late 60's onward...one that includes an escalating embrace/appreciation of violence and risk-taking, female-degradation and abuse imagery, responsibility avoidance, and pleasure-addict escapism through media or substance.

And, there again, when these things get discussed in a public setting, the question is never posed as "what forces might be causing such a substantial population-level shift?" Rather, it takes the form of either pretending that one or more of these topics exists in a vaccuum, or as a very gently phrased version of the question "What is wrong with people?"

Which, of course, is not a way to learn anything.

I think you're completely off mark on risk-taking. Risk-taking is a personal endeavour and does not require the subjugation of anyone in order to be achieved.

[broken iris]

Robot couch can drive you to the fridge and back

http://www.cnet.com/news/robot-couch-ca ... -and-back/

All it needs is a bio toilet and we can let Wall-E take over.

[Wendy Carlos's Twin]

Why is what Gene Simmons says big news all of a sudden? That Planet of the Apes reject declares rock dead and we're supposed to give a shit? He oughta know that rock is dead - he killed it!

[McParadigm]

Why is what Gene Simmons says big news all of a sudden? That Planet of the Apes reject declares rock dead and we're supposed to give a shit? He oughta know that rock is dead - he killed it!

*Eddie Vedder

[Heathen]

Why is what Gene Simmons says big news all of a sudden? That Planet of the Apes reject declares rock dead and we're supposed to give a shit? He oughta know that rock is dead - he killed it!

Because music journalism is garbage. Oh, and people are garbage too.

[broken iris]

Why is what Gene Simmons says big news all of a sudden? That Planet of the Apes reject declares rock dead and we're supposed to give a shit? He oughta know that rock is dead - he killed it!

He's years too late. Arena rock died when with Napster.