Red Mosquito

meatwad wrote:Maybe we're not looking at this thing as a bigger picture. The thought process seems to end with "the Russians simply wanted Trump elected." Maybe we should be asking ourselves, "Then what?" Perhaps they wanted him elected so they could then release all the garbage they have on him in order to create chaos and possibly a Constitutional crisis, completely upending American Democracy as we know it. Imagine a trove of Trump-related information coming out days before inauguration and what that might result in. I don't think we're giving the Russians enough credit for playing a longer game than just influencing an election.
If you think about it this way, it becomes less about a Trump presidency helping Russia and more about him being the perfect short-sighted and egotistical candidate to pull something like that off.

BurtReynolds wrote:On the other hand, major powers routinely play these games with their rivals, and the fact that we've become so lazy at defending against them under our recent administrations is pretty alarming. Russia attempting to influence the election shouldn't be news. Our incompetence and susceptibility should be.

digster wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:On the other hand, major powers routinely play these games with their rivals, and the fact that we've become so lazy at defending against them under our recent administrations is pretty alarming. Russia attempting to influence the election shouldn't be news. Our incompetence and susceptibility should be.

Eh, kind of. I don't really recall a country ever trying to tip the scales in one direction, though. Should this news be true, Russia either was able to have an impact on our elections for the first time on this scale and will continue to throw monkey wrenches in the future, or they saw Trump as a unique opportunity for them, in a way that previous presidential elections have not been.

tragabigzanda wrote:

digster wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:On the other hand, major powers routinely play these games with their rivals, and the fact that we've become so lazy at defending against them under our recent administrations is pretty alarming. Russia attempting to influence the election shouldn't be news. Our incompetence and susceptibility should be.

Eh, kind of. I don't really recall a country ever trying to tip the scales in one direction, though. Should this news be true, Russia either was able to have an impact on our elections for the first time on this scale and will continue to throw monkey wrenches in the future, or they saw Trump as a unique opportunity for them, in a way that previous presidential elections have not been.

You guys recall that the US has installed puppet regimes in other countries, through violence, on numerous occasions, right?

tragabigzanda wrote:

digster wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:On the other hand, major powers routinely play these games with their rivals, and the fact that we've become so lazy at defending against them under our recent administrations is pretty alarming. Russia attempting to influence the election shouldn't be news. Our incompetence and susceptibility should be.

Eh, kind of. I don't really recall a country ever trying to tip the scales in one direction, though. Should this news be true, Russia either was able to have an impact on our elections for the first time on this scale and will continue to throw monkey wrenches in the future, or they saw Trump as a unique opportunity for them, in a way that previous presidential elections have not been.

You guys recall that the US has installed puppet regimes in other countries, through violence, on numerous occasions, right?

digster wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

digster wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:On the other hand, major powers routinely play these games with their rivals, and the fact that we've become so lazy at defending against them under our recent administrations is pretty alarming. Russia attempting to influence the election shouldn't be news. Our incompetence and susceptibility should be.

Eh, kind of. I don't really recall a country ever trying to tip the scales in one direction, though. Should this news be true, Russia either was able to have an impact on our elections for the first time on this scale and will continue to throw monkey wrenches in the future, or they saw Trump as a unique opportunity for them, in a way that previous presidential elections have not been.

You guys recall that the US has installed puppet regimes in other countries, through violence, on numerous occasions, right?

Sure...I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said. I should have said I was specifically referring to US presidential elections.

tragabigzanda wrote:

digster wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

digster wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:On the other hand, major powers routinely play these games with their rivals, and the fact that we've become so lazy at defending against them under our recent administrations is pretty alarming. Russia attempting to influence the election shouldn't be news. Our incompetence and susceptibility should be.

Eh, kind of. I don't really recall a country ever trying to tip the scales in one direction, though. Should this news be true, Russia either was able to have an impact on our elections for the first time on this scale and will continue to throw monkey wrenches in the future, or they saw Trump as a unique opportunity for them, in a way that previous presidential elections have not been.

You guys recall that the US has installed puppet regimes in other countries, through violence, on numerous occasions, right?

Sure...I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said. I should have said I was specifically referring to US presidential elections.

Sorry, wasn't trying to be critical of you and Burt, more just trying to make the point that all the politicians' hand-wringing over this Russian thing strikes me as fairly silly given our own country's past attempts at global control.

tragabigzanda wrote:I know this is sort of a ignorant and small-minded way of looking at things, but there's a part of me that sees these sorts of international power struggles as hopelessly outdated. The global economy and world trade have effectively linked us all together via the production chain, and a bad trade deal (for example) for Russia is ultimately a bad deal for the rest of the world. And the results of the "economic winners and losers" way of doing business have already proven to breed violent contempt for our country. So I'm sort of rolling my eyes at the Russia thing, just feeling like "Ugh, our planet is just going to kill itself anyway, so whatever."

digster wrote:Yeah, I think I'm thinking about the fact that Putin seems to view Trump as a unique opportunity, and how that may manifest itself going forward. Trump's continued head in sand approach to not believing Russia had a finger on the scale is expected, but Trump's comments about NATO during the election may make Putin feel as if the calvary won't be called should he start pressing on Estonia or vulnerable spots in eastern Europe.

McParadigm wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

digster wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

digster wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:On the other hand, major powers routinely play these games with their rivals, and the fact that we've become so lazy at defending against them under our recent administrations is pretty alarming. Russia attempting to influence the election shouldn't be news. Our incompetence and susceptibility should be.

Eh, kind of. I don't really recall a country ever trying to tip the scales in one direction, though. Should this news be true, Russia either was able to have an impact on our elections for the first time on this scale and will continue to throw monkey wrenches in the future, or they saw Trump as a unique opportunity for them, in a way that previous presidential elections have not been.

You guys recall that the US has installed puppet regimes in other countries, through violence, on numerous occasions, right?

Sure...I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said. I should have said I was specifically referring to US presidential elections.

Sorry, wasn't trying to be critical of you and Burt, more just trying to make the point that all the politicians' hand-wringing over this Russian thing strikes me as fairly silly given our own country's past attempts at global control.

It's not fairly silly. Precedence alone does not equate to conventionality. Its like saying "eh, it's pretty silly to complain about being invaded. We invade countries all the time."

tragabigzanda wrote:

McParadigm wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

digster wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

digster wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:On the other hand, major powers routinely play these games with their rivals, and the fact that we've become so lazy at defending against them under our recent administrations is pretty alarming. Russia attempting to influence the election shouldn't be news. Our incompetence and susceptibility should be.

Eh, kind of. I don't really recall a country ever trying to tip the scales in one direction, though. Should this news be true, Russia either was able to have an impact on our elections for the first time on this scale and will continue to throw monkey wrenches in the future, or they saw Trump as a unique opportunity for them, in a way that previous presidential elections have not been.

You guys recall that the US has installed puppet regimes in other countries, through violence, on numerous occasions, right?

Sure...I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said. I should have said I was specifically referring to US presidential elections.

Sorry, wasn't trying to be critical of you and Burt, more just trying to make the point that all the politicians' hand-wringing over this Russian thing strikes me as fairly silly given our own country's past attempts at global control.

It's not fairly silly. Precedence alone does not equate to conventionality. Its like saying "eh, it's pretty silly to complain about being invaded. We invade countries all the time."

And yet this remains my primary outlook. Even after 9/11, I felt like "This is a tragedy that other countries experience all the time." Of course I have empathy for people who suffer in any capacity, and the hostile takeover or hijacking of any country's sovereignty by another is awful. But it's not like it's going to change in my lifetime. So yea, unfortunately, I do sort of view this as conventional, business-as-usual stuff.