Red Mosquito

@SkitchP wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

@SkitchP wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

@SkitchP wrote:RE: Sansa betraying Jon's secret.

The logic for him sharing the secret was based entirely on him being "family" so once he told them that he wasn't (at least not to the level they thought) likely freed Sansa from her promise in her mind. He's not a Stark, therefore not family and she is not bound to that oath.

Um... he is a Start though

That's not how last names work Joey.

Just sayin

Feels like you're just moving the goal posts, buddy.

He is 50% Stark. That counts.

durdencommatyler wrote:

@SkitchP wrote:RE: Sansa betraying Jon's secret.

The logic for him sharing the secret was based entirely on him being "family" so once he told them that he wasn't (at least not to the level they thought) likely freed Sansa from her promise in her mind. He's not a Stark, therefore not family and she is not bound to that oath.

Um... he is a Start though

If we're thinking of the customs and laws of Westeros, it is very unusual for someone to claim to be "part" of their mother's family; it's a patriarchal society, after all. It'd be similar to making a play that Arya is more or less a Tully, for example. When Cersei insisted on styling Joffrey as much as a Lannister as a Baratheon, it raised eyebrows (Stannis's raven campaign launched soon after, and no doubt the Lannister-ness of the whole thing lent credence to it). There's something poetic about him being the son of Ned Stark in everything except name/law, same thing as Theon (sort of), but for someone like Sansa who's trying to preserve the ways/independence of the North by any means necessary, those things apparently mean zilch.

durdencommatyler wrote:

Simple Torture wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:No joke... when she said that word, I gasped because I thought shit was about to go down.

Me too, like she was going to try and push/pull Cersei off the battlements with her, sacrificing herself for the greater good. Or maybe a secret plan by the good guys to take out Cersei/Euron while sacrificing her (although she'd have no way of knowing that).

It still works as tacit permission to use the same tactics she used to free Missandei and the Unsullied to take down Cersei.

Totally agree. I had a lot of the same thoughts as it played out. And I love the idea that Missandei is ultimately giving Dany permission to do the thing that set so many free across the Narrow Sea, the thing that her other advisers are weary of.

Powerful moment even if it didn't play out as I expected. I think this episode was sharp and profound. It really moved me in many, many ways. These character episodes mean the world to me. I really respond to them. Normally, I get the rift between my version of this fandom and the "rest of the world." But I have to say, I'm actually a little shocked to see how many people disliked this episodes. There's so much in it to chew on and talk about.

I thought it was really brilliant. *shrugs*

I agree about the M death scene. From the surface it may appear like “avenge me”, but it’s really reminding Dany of her destiny

Simple Torture wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

@SkitchP wrote:RE: Sansa betraying Jon's secret.

The logic for him sharing the secret was based entirely on him being "family" so once he told them that he wasn't (at least not to the level they thought) likely freed Sansa from her promise in her mind. He's not a Stark, therefore not family and she is not bound to that oath.

Um... he is a Start though

If we're thinking of the customs and laws of Westeros, it is very unusual for someone to claim to be "part" of their mother's family; it's a patriarchal society, after all. It'd be similar to making a play that Arya is more or less a Tully, for example. When Cersei insisted on styling Joffrey as much as a Lannister as a Baratheon, it raised eyebrows (Stannis's raven campaign launched soon after, and no doubt the Lannister-ness of the whole thing lent credence to it). There's something poetic about him being the son of Ned Stark in everything except name/law, same thing as Theon (sort of), but for someone like Sansa who's trying to preserve the ways/independence of the North by any means necessary, those things apparently mean zilch.

That's what im saying. I count on ST to make my points for me.

Simple Torture wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

@SkitchP wrote:RE: Sansa betraying Jon's secret.

The logic for him sharing the secret was based entirely on him being "family" so once he told them that he wasn't (at least not to the level they thought) likely freed Sansa from her promise in her mind. He's not a Stark, therefore not family and she is not bound to that oath.

Um... he is a Start though

If we're thinking of the customs and laws of Westeros, it is very unusual for someone to claim to be "part" of their mother's family; it's a patriarchal society, after all. It'd be similar to making a play that Arya is more or less a Tully, for example. When Cersei insisted on styling Joffrey as much as a Lannister as a Baratheon, it raised eyebrows (Stannis's raven campaign launched soon after, and no doubt the Lannister-ness of the whole thing lent credence to it). There's something poetic about him being the son of Ned Stark in everything except name/law, same thing as Theon (sort of), but for someone like Sansa who's trying to preserve the ways/independence of the North by any means necessary, those things apparently mean zilch.

Sure but in the context of these conversations, we've all used both and recognized both. Especially given the unusual case of Jon Snow. I'm more talking about the public discourse among fans than I am about the characters in the show.

But, beyond that, Arya gives a pretty moving speech about how Jon is family regardless of all the norms and usual bullshit that goes along with a name. Sansa betraying that trust still stings. Especially given all that she's been through. She weeps over fucking THEON but she betrays Jon's trust, breaks an oath in front of the God's Wood tree because...? What she hates Dany so much?

I think no matter which way you slice it, what she did was pretty underhanded and shitty. Certainly not the kind of behavior her father would have approved of.

durdencommatyler wrote:

Simple Torture wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

@SkitchP wrote:RE: Sansa betraying Jon's secret.

The logic for him sharing the secret was based entirely on him being "family" so once he told them that he wasn't (at least not to the level they thought) likely freed Sansa from her promise in her mind. He's not a Stark, therefore not family and she is not bound to that oath.

Um... he is a Start though

If we're thinking of the customs and laws of Westeros, it is very unusual for someone to claim to be "part" of their mother's family; it's a patriarchal society, after all. It'd be similar to making a play that Arya is more or less a Tully, for example. When Cersei insisted on styling Joffrey as much as a Lannister as a Baratheon, it raised eyebrows (Stannis's raven campaign launched soon after, and no doubt the Lannister-ness of the whole thing lent credence to it). There's something poetic about him being the son of Ned Stark in everything except name/law, same thing as Theon (sort of), but for someone like Sansa who's trying to preserve the ways/independence of the North by any means necessary, those things apparently mean zilch.

Sure but in the context of these conversations, we've all used both and recognized both. Especially given the unusual case of Jon Snow. I'm more talking about the public discourse among fans than I am about the characters in the show.

But, beyond that, Arya gives a pretty moving speech about how Jon is family regardless of all the norms and usual bullshit that goes along with a name. Sansa betraying that trust still stings. Especially given all that she's been through. She weeps over fucking THEON but she betrays Jon's trust, breaks an oath in front of the God's Wood tree because...? What she hates Dany so much?

I think no matter which way you slice it, what she did was pretty underhanded and shitty. Certainly not the kind of behavior her father would have approved of.

No one was saying it's right . Just saying that I think that's the logic she's going to use to justify it to herself, arya and maybe even Jon

If they sit there and insist he’s their brother in spirit even before knowing the real truth, it’s pretty shitty to change your mind on keeping a secret because he’s a cousin

@SkitchP wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Simple Torture wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

@SkitchP wrote:RE: Sansa betraying Jon's secret.

The logic for him sharing the secret was based entirely on him being "family" so once he told them that he wasn't (at least not to the level they thought) likely freed Sansa from her promise in her mind. He's not a Stark, therefore not family and she is not bound to that oath.

Um... he is a Start though

If we're thinking of the customs and laws of Westeros, it is very unusual for someone to claim to be "part" of their mother's family; it's a patriarchal society, after all. It'd be similar to making a play that Arya is more or less a Tully, for example. When Cersei insisted on styling Joffrey as much as a Lannister as a Baratheon, it raised eyebrows (Stannis's raven campaign launched soon after, and no doubt the Lannister-ness of the whole thing lent credence to it). There's something poetic about him being the son of Ned Stark in everything except name/law, same thing as Theon (sort of), but for someone like Sansa who's trying to preserve the ways/independence of the North by any means necessary, those things apparently mean zilch.

Sure but in the context of these conversations, we've all used both and recognized both. Especially given the unusual case of Jon Snow. I'm more talking about the public discourse among fans than I am about the characters in the show.

But, beyond that, Arya gives a pretty moving speech about how Jon is family regardless of all the norms and usual bullshit that goes along with a name. Sansa betraying that trust still stings. Especially given all that she's been through. She weeps over fucking THEON but she betrays Jon's trust, breaks an oath in front of the God's Wood tree because...? What she hates Dany so much?

I think no matter which way you slice it, what she did was pretty underhanded and shitty. Certainly not the kind of behavior her father would have approved of.

No one was saying it's right . Just saying that I think that's the logic she's going to use to justify it to herself, arya and maybe even Jon

Okay, that's fair. I can see that. She's obviously totally wrong ... but I get what you're saying now.

Mecca wrote:If they sit there and insist he’s their brother in spirit even before knowing the real truth, it’s pretty shitty to change your mind on keeping a secret because he’s a cousin

aw huh

durdencommatyler wrote:

Simple Torture wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

@SkitchP wrote:RE: Sansa betraying Jon's secret.

The logic for him sharing the secret was based entirely on him being "family" so once he told them that he wasn't (at least not to the level they thought) likely freed Sansa from her promise in her mind. He's not a Stark, therefore not family and she is not bound to that oath.

Um... he is a Start though

If we're thinking of the customs and laws of Westeros, it is very unusual for someone to claim to be "part" of their mother's family; it's a patriarchal society, after all. It'd be similar to making a play that Arya is more or less a Tully, for example. When Cersei insisted on styling Joffrey as much as a Lannister as a Baratheon, it raised eyebrows (Stannis's raven campaign launched soon after, and no doubt the Lannister-ness of the whole thing lent credence to it). There's something poetic about him being the son of Ned Stark in everything except name/law, same thing as Theon (sort of), but for someone like Sansa who's trying to preserve the ways/independence of the North by any means necessary, those things apparently mean zilch.

Sure but in the context of these conversations, we've all used both and recognized both. Especially given the unusual case of Jon Snow. I'm more talking about the public discourse among fans than I am about the characters in the show.

But, beyond that, Arya gives a pretty moving speech about how Jon is family regardless of all the norms and usual bullshit that goes along with a name. Sansa betraying that trust still stings. Especially given all that she's been through. She weeps over fucking THEON but she betrays Jon's trust, breaks an oath in front of the God's Wood tree because...? What she hates Dany so much?

I think no matter which way you slice it, what she did was pretty underhanded and shitty. Certainly not the kind of behavior her father would have approved of.

She’s always shown more Tully traits than anything. Damn southron ambitions

I honestly don’t get Sansa’s hatred of Dany either

One thing I haven't seen discussed much... and maybe I'm the only one who feels this way... but I have to say, for me, one of the biggest "betrayals" in the show for me was Varys.

He's always been a character I turned to as a sort of compass. I've always sided with him. I've long thought that whatever he's up to is the right thing but this episode felt totally wrong. Watching him talk to Tyrion, I was 100% Tyrion and I was shocked that Varys took the position that he did. It felt like a slap in the face.

It's the first time I've stood on the opposite side and I didn't like it.

Mecca wrote:I honestly don’t get Sansa’s hatred of Dany either

There is certainly something weird about Dany refusing to even discuss a semi-autonomous North when she handed the same right to the Iron Islands in 5 minutes after Yara promised to get her tits out for her.

Mecca wrote:I honestly don’t get Sansa’s hatred of Dany either

It feels really forced right now. Obviously, we need to see how it all plays out before I weigh in on all of it. But it doesn't feel like organic storytelling to me.

durdencommatyler wrote:It's the first time I've stood on the opposite side and I didn't like it.

You heard it here first: Joey was perfectly fine with the assassins that Varys sent to kill Dany in Essos.

"King Robert 4 lyfe, kill the Targaryen bitch!" -durdencommatyler

Simple Torture wrote:

Mecca wrote:I honestly don’t get Sansa’s hatred of Dany either

There is certainly something weird about Dany refusing to even discuss a semi-autonomous North when she handed the same right to the Iron Islands in 5 minutes after Yara promised to get her tits out for her.

Is that true though? I feel like that conversation hasn't even happened. If Sansa and Jon talked to her about it, I feel like there's a treaty that could be reached and agreed upon. But also, in Dany's defense, maybe she'd be resistant to that given Sansa's unnecessary animosity. Would you trust Sansa if you were Dany, given all she's shown?

What is Sansa's motivation?

Simple Torture wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:It's the first time I've stood on the opposite side and I didn't like it.

You heard it here first: Joey was perfectly fine with the assassins that Varys sent to kill Dany in Essos.

"King Robert 4 lyfe, kill the Targaryen bitch!" -durdencommatyler

“The WHORE is pregnant” - joey

Mecca wrote: