Red Mosquito

theplatypus wrote:Ohhh. A silent "snow". That makes sense now.

Thank fuck for that.

harmless wrote:

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:

harmless wrote:

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:I read up to "anthemic songs that take off live". Sorry. That's not all I mean by a song that works live, and I wish it wasn't all Pearl Jam meant.

This tour has made it pretty clear what I think they mean. They are writing songs that will make for amazing live experiences once everyone knows the songs and are able to really commit to them as an audience. What will be the most fun for the audience to share with the band, which, frankly, is what makes the LIVE pearl jam experience so incredible (this is not just a sing along. It is also singing along). What makes this tricky in real time is people aren't necessarily as familiar or invested in the songs the first time they're played. When you've been sitting on a song for 10-20 years it'll just mean a lot more to the audience. So the songs from L-bolt that they're playing live will probably be great a tour or two from now, when they are old standbys for the audience. But right now the songs are written for audience participation and commitment while the audience doesn't actually know their part yet.

If that makes sense.

It does.[/quote

Edit: but if you're right, I still think they're thinking in the short-term, which in the end won't contribute a great deal to their lasting legacy.

Actually, given the way pjs rep is now built in part on the strength of the live shows they might be helping their legacy


Plus, there is no way albums like riot act or binaural are going to build a legacy either. Those are fans records

I think there are arguments on both sides. But personally, the effort they went to to make studio albums has been diminishing. Yes, they've cemented a legacy in terms of the live show, and they're currently building on it. But in my opinion, they won't be remembered for more than a few truly great studio records. They are obviously fine with this, and so are (most of) the fans.

I agree, and I'd love for them to make another 1-2undisputed classics, and it think they could. But yield, binaural, and riot act are going to be irrelevant for legacy purposes outside of their fan base

You agree? I think that answer proves that this whole middle-period / no middle-period argument is a non-starter, and there's more to it. We can all agree that whatever our favourite records, Pearl Jam are, to some extent, making functional albums now (reasons to tour), rather than trying to create albums that have memorable classic potential in their own right. That's kind of sad, but in the end, it doesn't put me off. Because I'm a sucker for punishment.

Well I still think these new albums are substantially better than those middle period records. Focusing only on making the best studio album you can won't necessarily make it great. Nor do I think the functionality precludes a classic. Probably makes if harder though

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:

harmless wrote:

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:I read up to "anthemic songs that take off live". Sorry. That's not all I mean by a song that works live, and I wish it wasn't all Pearl Jam meant.

This tour has made it pretty clear what I think they mean. They are writing songs that will make for amazing live experiences once everyone knows the songs and are able to really commit to them as an audience. What will be the most fun for the audience to share with the band, which, frankly, is what makes the LIVE pearl jam experience so incredible (this is not just a sing along. It is also singing along). What makes this tricky in real time is people aren't necessarily as familiar or invested in the songs the first time they're played. When you've been sitting on a song for 10-20 years it'll just mean a lot more to the audience. So the songs from L-bolt that they're playing live will probably be great a tour or two from now, when they are old standbys for the audience. But right now the songs are written for audience participation and commitment while the audience doesn't actually know their part yet.

If that makes sense.

It does.[/quote

Edit: but if you're right, I still think they're thinking in the short-term, which in the end won't contribute a great deal to their lasting legacy.

Actually, given the way pjs rep is now built in part on the strength of the live shows they might be helping their legacy


Plus, there is no way albums like riot act or binaural are going to build a legacy either. Those are fans records

I think there are arguments on both sides. But personally, the effort they went to to make studio albums has been diminishing. Yes, they've cemented a legacy in terms of the live show, and they're currently building on it. But in my opinion, they won't be remembered for more than a few truly great studio records. They are obviously fine with this, and so are (most of) the fans.

I agree, and I'd love for them to make another 1-2undisputed classics, and it think they could. But yield, binaural, and riot act are going to be irrelevant for legacy purposes outside of their fan base

You agree? I think that answer proves that this whole middle-period / no middle-period argument is a non-starter, and there's more to it. We can all agree that whatever our favourite records, Pearl Jam are, to some extent, making functional albums now (reasons to tour), rather than trying to create albums that have memorable classic potential in their own right. That's kind of sad, but in the end, it doesn't put me off. Because I'm a sucker for punishment.

Well I still think these new albums are substantially better than those middle period records. Focusing only on making the best studio album you can won't necessarily make it great. Nor do I think the functionality precludes a classic. Probably makes if harder though

Yup.

Birds in Hell wrote:I'm not sure why he keeps writing melodies that he can't sing comfortably. The songs the band plays in a lower key are almost exclusively from their three most recent records which seems kind of perverse.

Release_Me wrote:I just don't get the idea that Ed shouldn't write songs which are vocally challenging just because they will be hard to sing live. Songs should be written the way that makes them sound best.

I think the fact that he struggles with them live is more of a supplementary concern, I don't think he sounds that great even on the studio versions.

There's a tendency Ed's developed on the last three records to screech through every rocker at the very height of his range as though he's channeling Bon Scott. To my ears that's a really significant change from their earlier records, even the rockers from Ten, Vs and Vitalogy (for the most part) rely more on Ed's mid-range full-bodied voice. He can still sing the shit out of Alive, Even Flow, Go, Corduroy, Hail Hail, Given to Fly, Brain of J etc.

Ed's vocal tone on songs like Life Wasted, Comatose, Gonna See My Friend, Getaway and Mind Your Manners (among others) sounds, in comparison, a lot weaker and thinner to my ears - even on the studio recordings.

It's just not very enjoyable to listen to.

Birds in Hell wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:I'm not sure why he keeps writing melodies that he can't sing comfortably. The songs the band plays in a lower key are almost exclusively from their three most recent records which seems kind of perverse.

Release_Me wrote:I just don't get the idea that Ed shouldn't write songs which are vocally challenging just because they will be hard to sing live. Songs should be written the way that makes them sound best.

I think the fact that he struggles with them live is more of a supplementary concern, I don't think he sounds that great even on the studio versions.

There's a tendency Ed's developed on the last three records to screech through every rocker at the very height of his range as though he's channeling Bon Scott. To my ears that's a really significant change from their earlier records, even the rockers from Ten, Vs and Vitalogy (for the most part) rely more on Ed's mid-range full-bodied voice. He can still sing the shit out of Alive, Even Flow, Go, Corduroy, Hail Hail, Given to Fly, Brain of J etc.

Ed's vocal tone on songs like Life Wasted, Comatose, Gonna See My Friend, Getaway and Mind Your Manners (among others) sounds, in comparison, a lot weaker and thinner to my ears - even on the studio recordings.

It's just not very enjoyable to listen to.

Nail on head.

Clip on world

Birds in Hell wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:I'm not sure why he keeps writing melodies that he can't sing comfortably. The songs the band plays in a lower key are almost exclusively from their three most recent records which seems kind of perverse.

Release_Me wrote:I just don't get the idea that Ed shouldn't write songs which are vocally challenging just because they will be hard to sing live. Songs should be written the way that makes them sound best.

I think the fact that he struggles with them live is more of a supplementary concern, I don't think he sounds that great even on the studio versions.

There's a tendency Ed's developed on the last three records to screech through every rocker at the very height of his range as though he's channeling Bon Scott. To my ears that's a really significant change from their earlier records, even the rockers from Ten, Vs and Vitalogy (for the most part) rely more on Ed's mid-range full-bodied voice. He can still sing the shit out of Alive, Even Flow, Go, Corduroy, Hail Hail, Given to Fly, Brain of J etc.

Ed's vocal tone on songs like Life Wasted, Comatose, Gonna See My Friend, Getaway and Mind Your Manners (among others) sounds, in comparison, a lot weaker and thinner to my ears - even on the studio recordings.

It's just not very enjoyable to listen to.

spot on assessment.

LetMeSleep wrote:I'd love a theatre tour.

God damn yes.

AC/DC is what I'm most reminded of when I listen to something like Life Wasted, and PJ never used to sound like AC/DC.

Eddie sounds screechy/strangled to me on the S/T stuff, but be sounds deeper/stronger on backspacer and LB for the most part. However, there's a whole host of new problems on those two, mainly on the slower shit for me. I'm talking about the albums, not live though.

I think he could come up with vocal melodies that were interesting and easier to pull of if he really wanted to. They're all about the live shows, its bizarre to write a song that you're gonna sound like ass singing 8/10 times.

I thought he sounded good on the detuned getaway, should have just recorded it like that. Work the music around his voice.

harmless wrote:AC/DC is what I'm most reminded of when I listen to something like Life Wasted, and PJ never used to sound like AC/DC.

All bands have to progress or at least not stagnate. The problem I have is that the lap-of-honour playing festivals phase seems to have influenced the studio work.

I'd love a theatre tour so the band can experiment with sets without having to worry about the folks up the back. I feel it'd be just as intense if not moreso. And they could revisit some corners they haven't looked in for awhile.

stupidmop wrote:Eddie sounds screechy/strangled to me on the S/T stuff, but be sounds deeper/stronger on backspacer and LB for the most part. However, there's a whole host of new problems on those two, mainly on the slower shit for me. I'm talking about the albums, not live though.

I think he could come up with vocal melodies that were interesting and easier to pull of if he really wanted to. They're all about the live shows, its bizarre to write a song that you're gonna sound like ass singing 8/10 times.

I thought he sounded good on the detuned getaway, should have just recorded it like that. Work the music around his voice.

Yup. There's every chance that if what we know as the "tuned-down" version had been on the record itself, we would have grown to like it for what it was.

LetMeSleep wrote:

harmless wrote:AC/DC is what I'm most reminded of when I listen to something like Life Wasted, and PJ never used to sound like AC/DC.

All bands have to progress or at least not stagnate. The problem I have is that the lap-of-honour playing festivals phase seems to have influenced the studio work.

I'd love a theatre tour so the band can experiment with sets without having to worry about the folks up the back. I feel it'd be just as intense if not moreso. And they could revisit some corners they haven't looked in for awhile.

I guess I'm not as familiar with what some people mean with "theatre" vs. "arena" in terms of the kind of gig it is. Is it just that the smaller theatre is more conducive to subtlety? They'd feel less pressured to rise to the anthems all the time? Is it harder to create and maintain an atmosphere in an auditorium / arena? That said, I agree in as much as I understand it.

stupidmop wrote:I thought he sounded good on the detuned getaway, should have just recorded it like that. Work the music around his voice.

The song itself when detuned sounded kind of leaden and deflated to me.

Think more Barbican or even Hammersmith than O2 or Brixton.

LetMeSleep wrote:Think more Barbican or even Hammersmith than O2 or Brixton.

Yeah, I get it.

Birds in Hell wrote:

stupidmop wrote:I thought he sounded good on the detuned getaway, should have just recorded it like that. Work the music around his voice.

The song itself when detuned sounded kind of leaden and deflated to me.

Thats what i meant with the work the music around his voice thing, instead of ed dragging the song up with only his voice, take the music to the next level or someshit. I have nothing to back it up but ima blame that on bo'bs 'they'd never make a decent album with out ed, gotta have him front and centre' shite. That said the only version i heard of youtube had barely any drums or bass so i dunno if it was the best representation of how it sounded. But i didn't really mind it less....bombastic? that's probably not the right word, but less foo fightersy lol.

This might be my favorite song from LB...maybe with Yellow Moon and Pendulum.

Birds in Hell wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:I'm not sure why he keeps writing melodies that he can't sing comfortably. The songs the band plays in a lower key are almost exclusively from their three most recent records which seems kind of perverse.

Release_Me wrote:I just don't get the idea that Ed shouldn't write songs which are vocally challenging just because they will be hard to sing live. Songs should be written the way that makes them sound best.

I think the fact that he struggles with them live is more of a supplementary concern, I don't think he sounds that great even on the studio versions.

There's a tendency Ed's developed on the last three records to screech through every rocker at the very height of his range as though he's channeling Bon Scott. To my ears that's a really significant change from their earlier records, even the rockers from Ten, Vs and Vitalogy (for the most part) rely more on Ed's mid-range full-bodied voice. He can still sing the shit out of Alive, Even Flow, Go, Corduroy, Hail Hail, Given to Fly, Brain of J etc.

Ed's vocal tone on songs like Life Wasted, Comatose, Gonna See My Friend, Getaway and Mind Your Manners (among others) sounds, in comparison, a lot weaker and thinner to my ears - even on the studio recordings.

It's just not very enjoyable to listen to.

I think all the rockers on LB sound absolutely terrific in studio. Backspacer rockers were also very good in studio. I don't see how Ed's 'screeching' through any of these, really. He sounds fantastic. There are parts which are higher than the rest of the song in most of these but that's something Ed's done on most of the Vs and Vitalogy rockers, some on Ten too. Screaming or singing high is a part of rock singing and something Ed does really well. If you don't like it, it's personal preference. I'm all for it and I wish he'd done more of it on the middle period records which I felt he sometimes snoozed/mumbled his way through. Getting through a complete song just on the basis of tone, no matter how good it is, is just boring for me. I could listen to the dozens of Ed imitators if I wanted that, they actually do a better job of it than him now. I like to hear some effort and skill on display.

Some of the S/T rockers are more abrasive because they are mostly screamed without much of a melodic interlude in between or any mid range singing to offset the harsh screams. Plus, Ed's tone in 2006 wasn't as clear as it is today probably because he was smoking more. I remember him going at the cigs in the EPK for S/T too. If those put somebody off, I could sort of understand but I still vastly preferred them to Riot Act.

And the songs you mentioned: Alive, Even Flow, Go, Corduroy, Hail Hail, Given to Fly, Brain of J etc. Ed doesn't really sing these with anywhere near the same intensity live as studio, except Hail Hail which doesn't really have a difficult part. That's because almost all of these are very demanding vocally either in sections or throughout. As or more demanding than Getaway which isn't really the epitome of the toughest PJ song to sing either. He's singing within himself mostly and that's why I never seek out any live versions of these anymore. They're quite underwhelming from a purely vocal perspective compared to studio or the early live versions.

I think down tuned Getaway was a shadow of the studio version. I really liked the one on the EPK though. He sounds unstrained on down tuned Getaway, but he also sounds boring. That's not enjoyable for me at all.

Release_Me wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:I'm not sure why he keeps writing melodies that he can't sing comfortably. The songs the band plays in a lower key are almost exclusively from their three most recent records which seems kind of perverse.

Release_Me wrote:I just don't get the idea that Ed shouldn't write songs which are vocally challenging just because they will be hard to sing live. Songs should be written the way that makes them sound best.

I think the fact that he struggles with them live is more of a supplementary concern, I don't think he sounds that great even on the studio versions.

There's a tendency Ed's developed on the last three records to screech through every rocker at the very height of his range as though he's channeling Bon Scott. To my ears that's a really significant change from their earlier records, even the rockers from Ten, Vs and Vitalogy (for the most part) rely more on Ed's mid-range full-bodied voice. He can still sing the shit out of Alive, Even Flow, Go, Corduroy, Hail Hail, Given to Fly, Brain of J etc.

Ed's vocal tone on songs like Life Wasted, Comatose, Gonna See My Friend, Getaway and Mind Your Manners (among others) sounds, in comparison, a lot weaker and thinner to my ears - even on the studio recordings.

It's just not very enjoyable to listen to.

I think all the rockers on LB sound absolutely terrific in studio. Backspacer rockers were also very good in studio. I don't see how Ed's 'screeching' through any of these, really. He sounds fantastic. There are parts which are higher than the rest of the song in most of these but that's something Ed's done on most of the Vs and Vitalogy rockers, some on Ten too. Screaming or singing high is a part of rock singing and something Ed does really well. If you don't like it, it's personal preference. I'm all for it and I wish he'd done more of it on the middle period records which I felt he sometimes snoozed/mumbled his way through. Getting through a complete song just on the basis of tone, no matter how good it is, is just boring for me. I could listen to the dozens of Ed imitators if I wanted that, they actually do a better job of it than him now. I like to hear some effort and skill on display.

Some of the S/T rockers are more abrasive because they are mostly screamed without much of a melodic interlude in between or any mid range singing to offset the harsh screams. Plus, Ed's tone in 2006 wasn't as clear as it is today probably because he was smoking more. I remember him going at the cigs in the EPK for S/T too. If those put somebody off, I could sort of understand but I still vastly preferred them to Riot Act.

And the songs you mentioned: Alive, Even Flow, Go, Corduroy, Hail Hail, Given to Fly, Brain of J etc. Ed doesn't really sing these with anywhere near the same intensity live as studio, except Hail Hail which doesn't really have a difficult part. That's because almost all of these are very demanding vocally either in sections or throughout. As or more demanding than Getaway which isn't really the epitome of the toughest PJ song to sing either. He's singing within himself mostly and that's why I never seek out any live versions of these anymore. They're quite underwhelming from a purely vocal perspective compared to studio or the early live versions.

I think down tuned Getaway was a shadow of the studio version. I really liked the one on the EPK though. He sounds unstrained on down tuned Getaway, but he also sounds boring. That's not enjoyable for me at all.

I agree with everything.