Red Mosquito

harmless wrote: What is the evidence they've lit the world on fire other than the general fanbase buying the albums yet again? I would agree with you if it weren't for the fact that "the fanbase" as you call it was global to begin with.

EJ wrote:

stip wrote:
S/T is their most political record. The setlists felt more 'planned'? What does that mean? Larger markets? They were playing fucking Iowa in 06

If you don't like the end result, fine, but I'm not sure what this has to do with a lack of 'leadership'. keeping cold confession off a record is brought to you by the same leadership team that kept sad off of binaural and undone off of riot act. the sound was almost certainly a calculated response to move as far away from the weary riot act sound, which was fairly reviled by large segments of the fan base at a time. There was a vision behind it. Moving away from a concept album does not negate that.

I don't like the art direction either, but since then they've gone to artists they presumably respect to have them help design their album art. What was the vision behind the binaural art. googling pictures of space?

Good post, Stip. I'm not buying this lack of leadership post 2003 argument either. As far as we know, the only thing directing them through 2003 was a recording obligation with Sony.

This has been discussed ad nauseum here, but it bears repeating: Ed even said he was really disappointed with how poorly Riot Act was selling, and how record stores weren't even stocking it. He wanted to move away from the cerebral, introspective stuff and make more visceral, immediate music. Music that might garner more public attention and would be more concert "set-friendly".

How this direction in music is responded to by hard core PJ fans is a different issue.

McParadigm wrote:Slap some space pictures on it, I guess. That will set the appropriate mood and context. Fuck. I don't know. Let's hit up Letterman and then go play some shows.

harmless wrote:They've simplified their music and aesthetic, but I'm not sure it's done anything for them.

hlniv wrote:

harmless wrote: What is the evidence they've lit the world on fire other than the general fanbase buying the albums yet again? I would agree with you if it weren't for the fact that "the fanbase" as you call it was global to begin with.

I believe that the shift to more "accessible" music after Riot Act hasn't impacted or grown the fanbase at all. It's basically all still the same folks who bought all the albums prior to S/T anyway.

hlniv wrote: The decision to not include Sad on Binaural was precisely due to the leadership that I am referring to, i.e. it would have been to much of a "hit". Undone or Down would have made Riot Act even more political, and didn't really fit the tone of the album. The reasons these songs were left off had more to do with unifying leadership, than a lack of it. Even if Binaural or Riot Act would have been better with a couple of those b-sides, I understand and respect the thoughtful reason for most of the omissions.

harmless wrote:

EJ wrote:

harmless wrote:

EJ wrote:

stip wrote:
S/T is their most political record. The setlists felt more 'planned'? What does that mean? Larger markets? They were playing fucking Iowa in 06

If you don't like the end result, fine, but I'm not sure what this has to do with a lack of 'leadership'. keeping cold confession off a record is brought to you by the same leadership team that kept sad off of binaural and undone off of riot act. the sound was almost certainly a calculated response to move as far away from the weary riot act sound, which was fairly reviled by large segments of the fan base at a time. There was a vision behind it. Moving away from a concept album does not negate that.

I don't like the art direction either, but since then they've gone to artists they presumably respect to have them help design their album art. What was the vision behind the binaural art. googling pictures of space?

Good post, Stip. I'm not buying this lack of leadership post 2003 argument either. As far as we know, the only thing directing them through 2003 was a recording obligation with Sony.

This has been discussed ad nauseum here, but it bears repeating: Ed even said he was really disappointed with how poorly Riot Act was selling, and how record stores weren't even stocking it. He wanted to move away from the cerebral, introspective stuff and make more visceral, immediate music. Music that might garner more public attention and would be more concert "set-friendly".

How this direction in music is responded to by hard core PJ fans is a different issue.

What is the evidence they've lit the world on fire other than the general fanbase buying the albums yet again? I would agree with you if it weren't for the fact that "the fanbase" as you call it was global to begin with.

Huh? Not sure what you're arguing here. I don't think they lit the world on fire with those changes. And, quite honestly, I don't like the direction they took. My point was that it was a conscious effort to attempt to get some more attention.

OK, yeah. I did think that your argument was that it was working. But regardless, I wasn't disagreeing as much as adding to what you said. My main thought is that whatever it is they're trying, I wish they'd stop, because I'm not sure Pearl Jam is any more significant to the world now than they were in 2006 and earlier. Certainly in the UK, the general public thinks they're still unnecessary, but now they come complete with boring music too.

Tuolumne wrote:

hlniv wrote:

harmless wrote: What is the evidence they've lit the world on fire other than the general fanbase buying the albums yet again? I would agree with you if it weren't for the fact that "the fanbase" as you call it was global to begin with.

I believe that the shift to more "accessible" music after Riot Act hasn't impacted or grown the fanbase at all. It's basically all still the same folks who bought all the albums prior to S/T anyway.

I would say this is not entirely true. Riot Act, back in 2003 when the record industry was still cranking full throttle, barely just inched to 500,000. S/t and Backspacer, with the record industry in the dumps beath that, and LB with the record industry in an even deeper dump is on a pace get close to that as well. It's almost shocking how badly Riot Act did commercially. If it came out today, I wonder if the comparative performance of it would have put it to like 100K total or something. You can't overstate how poorly Riot Act was recieved commercially.

LetMeSleep wrote:So PJ just want to be liked?

EJ wrote:

hlniv wrote: The decision to not include Sad on Binaural was precisely due to the leadership that I am referring to, i.e. it would have been to much of a "hit". Undone or Down would have made Riot Act even more political, and didn't really fit the tone of the album. The reasons these songs were left off had more to do with unifying leadership, than a lack of it. Even if Binaural or Riot Act would have been better with a couple of those b-sides, I understand and respect the thoughtful reason for most of the omissions.

How were these decisions any different than:
Let It Ride & Cold Concession left off of S/T
Pendulum left off of Backspacer
Of The Earth off of Lightning Bolt

Was their leadership involved in those ommissions?

hlniv wrote:

Tuolumne wrote:

hlniv wrote:

harmless wrote: What is the evidence they've lit the world on fire other than the general fanbase buying the albums yet again? I would agree with you if it weren't for the fact that "the fanbase" as you call it was global to begin with.

I believe that the shift to more "accessible" music after Riot Act hasn't impacted or grown the fanbase at all. It's basically all still the same folks who bought all the albums prior to S/T anyway.

I would say this is not entirely true. Riot Act, back in 2003 when the record industry was still cranking full throttle, barely just inched to 500,000. S/t and Backspacer, with the record industry in the dumps beath that, and LB with the record industry in an even deeper dump is on a pace get close to that as well. It's almost shocking how badly Riot Act did commercially. If it came out today, I wonder if the comparative performance of it would have put it to like 100K total or something. You can't overstate how poorly Riot Act was recieved commercially.

http://money.cnn.com/2013/04/25/technol ... c-decline/

Adjusted for inflation, overall music sales are roughly half today than in 2003. Which means the comparable 2013 performance for Riot Act would be 250K. Still less, and your point is a good one, but I bet the lower sales totals compared to current albums can be attributed more to the relative level of promotion than picking up new audience. They're holding on to more of the fanbase or re-introducing themselves to prior fans through heavy promotion, as opposed to growing a new segment of the fanbase through exciting and compelling new music.

LetMeSleep wrote:So PJ just want to be liked?

Sgt. Crackpot wrote:

LetMeSleep wrote:So PJ just want to be liked?

I liked them better when they didn't want to be liked.

EJ wrote:

hlniv wrote: The decision to not include Sad on Binaural was precisely due to the leadership that I am referring to, i.e. it would have been to much of a "hit". Undone or Down would have made Riot Act even more political, and didn't really fit the tone of the album. The reasons these songs were left off had more to do with unifying leadership, than a lack of it. Even if Binaural or Riot Act would have been better with a couple of those b-sides, I understand and respect the thoughtful reason for most of the omissions.

How were these decisions any different than:
Let It Ride & Cold Concession left off of S/T
Pendulum left off of Backspacer
Of The Earth off of Lightning Bolt

Was their leadership involved in those ommissions?

Sgt. Crackpot wrote:

LetMeSleep wrote:So PJ just want to be liked?

I liked them better when they didn't want to be liked.

hlniv wrote:

EJ wrote:

hlniv wrote: The decision to not include Sad on Binaural was precisely due to the leadership that I am referring to, i.e. it would have been to much of a "hit". Undone or Down would have made Riot Act even more political, and didn't really fit the tone of the album. The reasons these songs were left off had more to do with unifying leadership, than a lack of it. Even if Binaural or Riot Act would have been better with a couple of those b-sides, I understand and respect the thoughtful reason for most of the omissions.

How were these decisions any different than:
Let It Ride & Cold Concession left off of S/T
Pendulum left off of Backspacer
Of The Earth off of Lightning Bolt

Was their leadership involved in those ommissions?

They were all short sighted decisions to keep the albums as accessible and concise as possible. Much different type of direction