Red Mosquito

oh shit they let a bad guy out of jail and sent him back to russia in order to get a relatively innocent american out of the gulag? what a miscarriage of justice.

Norris wrote:oh shit they let a bad guy out of jail and sent him back to russia in order to get a relatively innocent american out of the gulag? what a miscarriage of justice.

you're right, back to the gulag, make it 20 years this time

But yeah we're the bad guys because we can see further than "bad thing bad make it stop".

i can only hope to be as enlightened as you someday

Bi_3 wrote:

Norris wrote:oh wait she's a d-list celebrity, her life must not be worth it

This is who she was traded for, a man responsible for the deaths of thousands of Africans and Arabs:

From a different perspective, Mr. Bout was the single biggest contributor to racial justice in the international arms trade. Who are these Western colonial powers to sanction developing Brown and Black countries and entities?

Karine Jean-Pierre spoke of Britney Griner as an inspirational role model, but aren't we missing someone here?

What’s the threshold here for you guys? If Whelan was included it would be ok? So the gay black woman for the arms dealer isn’t ok but throw in the white guy spy and it’s all good?

Exactly my point. The opposition to this doesn't seem to be Bout never should be freed but, Griner wasn't worth it.

Norris wrote:Exactly my point. The opposition to this doesn't seem to be Bout never should be freed but, Griner wasn't worth it.

He should never have been freed. Here’s an older clip about him before his conviction:

Yet even Portnoy had to add "...straight up for Britney Griner", as if there was some return that would have made freeing him worth it. If your position is he shouldn't have been released in any exchange, regardless of the return for the US, then fine that's valid. But most criticism I'm seeing today, even here in this thread, isn't saying that. At least not until right now after you've been pressed on it.

Also, dude wasn't serving a life sentence so he was going to head back to Russia eventually.

This Merchant of Death had just under 7 years left on his sentence. Would it have been worth it if he only had 5 years left? What about 3? What about 1? Where's the line?

I'm not overly broken up about any of this, but at least in theory, the government should act in our best interests, rather than score cheap publicity. Trading the war criminals of our apparent enemies for stoners who think foreign laws don't apply to them, rather than for our war criminals --err I mean agents-- around the world is a pretty bad look. But like Schoolboy said, we really suck at the spy game these days, so it shouldn't be a surprise.

If you're an agent for the US, you gotta be thinking you're a sucker. Hopefully the domestic ones feel the same.

Chris_H_2 wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:I'm not overly broken up about any of this, but at least in theory, the government should act in our best interests, rather than score cheap publicity. Trading the war criminals of our apparent enemies for stoners who think foreign laws don't apply to them, rather than for our war criminals --err I mean agents-- around the world is a pretty bad look. But like Schoolboy said, we really suck at the spy game these days, so it shouldn't be a surprise.

If you're an agent for the US, you gotta be thinking you're a sucker. Hopefully the domestic ones feel the same.

The other consideration is for the next US person held overseas on questionable grounds (Griner is not, she did the deed). We're going to run out of high profile foreign prisoners if we establish this as the baseline we'll trade for.

The funny part of the White House explanation that Whelan was not on the table is they can't explain why Fogel wasn't. Whelan was political/ security service based. Fogel did the same shit as Griner, but I suspect his family did not get a phone call from the Whitehouse as Whelan's did because it simply did not occur to them that they had an obligation to get him released, nor do they.

So wheland was actually court martialed and and given a bad conduct discharge over larceny charges but tell me again why we helped some pot smoker instead?

Peeps wrote:So wheland was actually court martialed and and given a bad conduct discharge over larceny charges but tell me again why we helped some pot smoker instead?

How does any of that relate to his Russian charges? I swear to God, I don't understand how your brain works. Either he was a US intelligence asset (in which case we owe him an out) or he isn't in which case it's not clear he actually violated any Russian Laws.

Unless those are Russian larceny charges, then by all means.

Care to explain why the first pot smoker didn't get any consideration? Get that talking point yet? Bueller?

I don't know why I am apparently inscrutable to you, but consider ignoring me entirely, it might improve your website experience.

simple schoolboy wrote:

Peeps wrote:So wheland was actually court martialed and and given a bad conduct discharge over larceny charges but tell me again why we helped some pot smoker instead?

How does any of that relate to his Russian charges? I swear to God, I don't understand how your brain works. Either he was a US intelligence asset (in which case we owe him an out) or he isn't in which case it's not clear he actually violated any Russian Laws.

Unless those are Russian larceny charges, then by all means.

Care to explain why the first pot smoker didn't get any consideration? Get that talking point yet? Bueller?

I don't know why I am apparently inscrutable to you, but consider ignoring me entirely, it might improve your website experience.

You think way to highly of yourself if you think that was directed at you and wasn’t just new information added to the discourse of this conversation.

The point of my statement is people saying we left a marine behind but saved a pot head who hates America. Either we treat everyone as an American of equal value or there is a specific value for each American that I’m not sure I’m comfortable with people assigning values to

Why didn’t the first pot smoker get any consideration? Probably because Russia never entertained that proposition. If I had to guess why the trade of prisoners was so lopsided in terms of their crimes is the kremlin knew it would sew discourse in America about who was released on both sides

You guys are having a great argument, but Russia was never going to put Wheland on the table. The State Dept has been really clear that it was Griner for Bout or nothing.

B wrote:You guys are having a great argument, but Russia was never going to put Wheland on the table. The State Dept has been really clear that it was Griner for Bout or nothing.

shhh. you cant tell people this. their truth is biden and the admin did not do anything to get wheland back

Peeps wrote:

B wrote:You guys are having a great argument, but Russia was never going to put Wheland on the table. The State Dept has been really clear that it was Griner for Bout or nothing.

shhh. you cant tell people this. their truth is biden and the admin did not do anything to get wheland back

Trading Bout should never have been on the table. It's like releasing El Chapo for a Cancun spring breaker.


This is just some of what he did:





If you need to fall back on your intersectional mantras to justify this, that's on you, but this was an unprecedented strategic mistake.