Red Mosquito

Thejambi wrote:

Tuolumne wrote:

harmless wrote:

Tuolumne wrote:

stip wrote:

theplatypus wrote:

stip wrote:if they were great songs they probably wouldn't have been divisive

Ah yes. Because as history has shown us, no great art is divisive.

look, within the fanbase there ARE songs that are seemingly universally loved. Alive, Black, State of Love and Trust, Rearview Mirror, Daughter, Go, Animal, last exit, Corduroy, Immortality, Given to Fly, Do the Evolution, In My Tree, Hail Hail, Insignificance, etc.

That's my point which is valid (I think) in the context of the discussion harmless and tolumne were having (if I understood it)

I gotta disagree respectfully here. Those songs, especially on Vitalogy and No Code were extremely divisive, I would argue. Ten and Vs had fans in the multi-millions. Millions heard Vitalogy (what I consider their finest album) and they ran for the hills. Millions heard No Code out of curiosity, and they're gone forever, like 17 years ago. They left and they aren't around to articulate, but they got the heck out. Millions of people. Vitalogy and No Code were 2 of the most divisive albums of that decade. In retrospect they are sort of the bedrock of the modern fanbase, but let's not forget how much it tore apart the fanbase they had at the time. Completely splintered it to pieces into something unrecognizable, changing the entire trajectory of the band.

Thank Christ for Backspacer. Now we have those billions back and the PJ fanbase is united again.

I see the point your making, but I think they went about it in a fairly genuine way. They could have gone the Aerosmith route and hired pop songwriters and made appearances with the teen idols fawning over them in order to grab a "new genration". But they simply made as melodic, concise, and hooky music as they could with bp. It did penetrate a subsection of fans/potential fans who had the band at arms length. This is why I call it a "moderate" success.

They whored out Backspacer more than I've seen them do with any other album to date.

Whether they 'went about it in a fairly genuine way' doesn't matter. Whatever they were trying, it didn't really work. After S/T, and Backspacer, they are no more famous and universally loved than they were during Riot Act. So all I'm saying is that their reasons for producing music like this doesn't make your liking for the music any more valid, because it hasn't fulfilled its express purpose. So by all means, love this new direction to death, but you don't need to rationalise or justify it to death. PJ haven't decided to suddenly play for everyone and make everyone happy. They've decided to play for a contingent of their fan base because (among other things) that contingent is the one which puts money in their pockets. So for all the songs they've designed to 'work well live', I don't care much because I won't get to enjoy them live. To me they're just subpar album tracks. If you can afford to feel better about this because hey, you can always go on tour, then great, good luck to you! But again, it doesn't take away from the fact a contingent of PJ's fan base will follow them anywhere, others are disappointed. Hence my comments regarding their constant divisiveness. They're doing a No Code again, except this time, it's people like me feeling alienated and pushed aside.

sward wrote:Its interesting to me to read the comments of the various characters here. I actually thought this was a board for fans of Pearl Jam, not necessarily critics of. Neither here nor there as it is the internet and this is often what message boards are all about, but I find it hard to fathom that there are so few true fans left on here. That's not to mean you have to like everything they put out. I certainly don't. But each album has enough on them that I see no reason to stop the support. I'm in the like Backspacer camp, so I guess it puts me in the minority around here an may also be why I don't share a lot of the critical opinion being bandied about. But wow. Kind of mystified at the whole thing.

I take nothing they put out seriously enough that it affects my being. I take each album as they come and pull out the pieces I enjoy and set aside the ones I don't. Every once in awhile, I give those songs another spin to see if I've changed my mind and once in awhile I have. If so..they go into my pile that I enjoy. Rinse/Repeat. I don't sit around for a nanosecond wondering why Eddie is forcing the band to play all these horrendous songs. Ha. Its silly to even write it let alone believe it. Any second on here trying to perceive what goes on within the privacy of the band is wasted.

Anyway. My two cents. I get the discussion and the dissection of all that is Pearl Jam, but I don't get the hostility.

As a counter to this - The Pit has become so sanitized of anyone giving a harsh criticism of the band, how is that enjoyable? I'd rather debate with stip why I hate The Fixer and most of Backspacer than hang around with everyone that just thinks everything the band does is 5 star.

Thejambi wrote:

Strat wrote:

KurtLeon wrote:

Dr. Van Nostrand wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:

Dr. Van Nostrand wrote:

KurtLeon wrote:

Strat wrote:RIP Kurt Leon

he was a solid dude.

though his old avatar used to creep me out

I found an old (I mean, REALLY OLD) Ed drawning that I made.
But I'm to ashamed to post it here.

You can pm me and ill post it for ya!

There is a thread for that.

either way, we need to see it

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

sward wrote:Its interesting to me to read the comments of the various characters here. I actually thought this was a board for fans of Pearl Jam, not necessarily critics of. Neither here nor there as it is the internet and this is often what message boards are all about, but I find it hard to fathom that there are so few true fans left on here. That's not to mean you have to like everything they put out. I certainly don't. But each album has enough on them that I see no reason to stop the support. I'm in the like Backspacer camp, so I guess it puts me in the minority around here an may also be why I don't share a lot of the critical opinion being bandied about. But wow. Kind of mystified at the whole thing.

I take nothing they put out seriously enough that it affects my being. I take each album as they come and pull out the pieces I enjoy and set aside the ones I don't. Every once in awhile, I give those songs another spin to see if I've changed my mind and once in awhile I have. If so..they go into my pile that I enjoy. Rinse/Repeat. I don't sit around for a nanosecond wondering why Eddie is forcing the band to play all these horrendous songs. Ha. Its silly to even write it let alone believe it. Any second on here trying to perceive what goes on within the privacy of the band is wasted.

Anyway. My two cents. I get the discussion and the dissection of all that is Pearl Jam, but I don't get the hostility.

As a counter to this - The Pit has become so sanitized of anyone giving a harsh criticism of the band, how is that enjoyable? I'd rather debate with stip why I hate The Fixer and most of Backspacer than hang around with everyone that just thinks everything the band does is 5 star.

yes, this is what music fans do. as idiotic and ridiculous as it is. If we have gotten to the point of ridiculous dissection and over analyzing, then pearl jam has clearly done something right and we have all been affected by their music by a large degree. I would argue that we are bigger/better fans than most at the pit. It is clear over there that PJ shows have little to nothing to do with the music nowadays and more to do with the merch, event, meeting old friends and checking shit off their list.

Thejambi wrote:

stupidmop wrote:The complaining about complaining about complaining ad infinitum is what makes this place a mess more than anything, if someone posts something overwhelmingly negative, then post a positive counter argument or something to swing things back to a more balanced discussion. If you feel positive about the band/album/song then post about that instead of complaining about negativity, cause all your doing otherwise is creating more negativity when.you could be creating a more positive vibe. Christ.

Tuolumne wrote:

stip wrote:

theplatypus wrote:

stip wrote:if they were great songs they probably wouldn't have been divisive

Ah yes. Because as history has shown us, no great art is divisive.

look, within the fanbase there ARE songs that are seemingly universally loved. Alive, Black, State of Love and Trust, Rearview Mirror, Daughter, Go, Animal, last exit, Corduroy, Immortality, Given to Fly, Do the Evolution, In My Tree, Hail Hail, Insignificance, etc.

That's my point which is valid (I think) in the context of the discussion harmless and tolumne were having (if I understood it)

I gotta disagree respectfully here. Those songs, especially on Vitalogy and No Code were extremely divisive, I would argue. Ten and Vs had fans in the multi-millions. Millions heard Vitalogy (what I consider their finest album) and they ran for the hills. Millions heard No Code out of curiosity, and they're gone forever, like 17 years ago. They left and they aren't around to articulate, but they got the heck out. Millions of people. Vitalogy and No Code were 2 of the most divisive albums of that decade. In retrospect they are sort of the bedrock of the modern fanbase, but let's not forget how much it tore apart the fanbase they had at the time. Completely splintered it to pieces into something unrecognizable, changing the entire trajectory of the band.

For an album to be successful to you does it have to be non devisive and loved by everyone then? Or if the next pj album produced 3 no1s would you regard it as a good album, irregardless of anything else?

I like the mess here . WHATS YOUR PROBLEM MAN?

Boo I realised I was possibly arguing something tolumne wasn't talking about and deleted but you caught me.

Indeed the mess is fun, but it seems there's a lot off butthurt people being butthurt for the same reason lately. I just like to talk about the pearl jams man.

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

sward wrote:Its interesting to me to read the comments of the various characters here. I actually thought this was a board for fans of Pearl Jam, not necessarily critics of. Neither here nor there as it is the internet and this is often what message boards are all about, but I find it hard to fathom that there are so few true fans left on here. That's not to mean you have to like everything they put out. I certainly don't. But each album has enough on them that I see no reason to stop the support. I'm in the like Backspacer camp, so I guess it puts me in the minority around here an may also be why I don't share a lot of the critical opinion being bandied about. But wow. Kind of mystified at the whole thing.

I take nothing they put out seriously enough that it affects my being. I take each album as they come and pull out the pieces I enjoy and set aside the ones I don't. Every once in awhile, I give those songs another spin to see if I've changed my mind and once in awhile I have. If so..they go into my pile that I enjoy. Rinse/Repeat. I don't sit around for a nanosecond wondering why Eddie is forcing the band to play all these horrendous songs. Ha. Its silly to even write it let alone believe it. Any second on here trying to perceive what goes on within the privacy of the band is wasted.

Anyway. My two cents. I get the discussion and the dissection of all that is Pearl Jam, but I don't get the hostility.

As a counter to this - The Pit has become so sanitized of anyone giving a harsh criticism of the band, how is that enjoyable? I'd rather debate with stip why I hate The Fixer and most of Backspacer than hang around with everyone that just thinks everything the band does is 5 star.

You don't even have to be anti-sycophancy to refuse to use the Pit, you just have to be anti-censorship. People are literally deleted and banned over there for being critical.

I can't believe i was banned. IM FANBOI!

Strat wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

sward wrote:Its interesting to me to read the comments of the various characters here. I actually thought this was a board for fans of Pearl Jam, not necessarily critics of. Neither here nor there as it is the internet and this is often what message boards are all about, but I find it hard to fathom that there are so few true fans left on here. That's not to mean you have to like everything they put out. I certainly don't. But each album has enough on them that I see no reason to stop the support. I'm in the like Backspacer camp, so I guess it puts me in the minority around here an may also be why I don't share a lot of the critical opinion being bandied about. But wow. Kind of mystified at the whole thing.

I take nothing they put out seriously enough that it affects my being. I take each album as they come and pull out the pieces I enjoy and set aside the ones I don't. Every once in awhile, I give those songs another spin to see if I've changed my mind and once in awhile I have. If so..they go into my pile that I enjoy. Rinse/Repeat. I don't sit around for a nanosecond wondering why Eddie is forcing the band to play all these horrendous songs. Ha. Its silly to even write it let alone believe it. Any second on here trying to perceive what goes on within the privacy of the band is wasted.

Anyway. My two cents. I get the discussion and the dissection of all that is Pearl Jam, but I don't get the hostility.

As a counter to this - The Pit has become so sanitized of anyone giving a harsh criticism of the band, how is that enjoyable? I'd rather debate with stip why I hate The Fixer and most of Backspacer than hang around with everyone that just thinks everything the band does is 5 star.

yes, this is what music fans do. as idiotic and ridiculous as it is. If we have gotten to the point of ridiculous dissection and over analyzing, then pearl jam has clearly done something right and we have all been affected by their music by a large degree. I would argue that we are bigger/better fans than most at the pit. It is clear over there that PJ shows have little to nothing to do with the music nowadays and more to do with the merch, event, meeting old friends and checking shit off their list.

That should be our new slogan: 'Red Mosquito: for those times when you can't find a betterfan.'

That's not really true. There's a lot of threads over there, some thoughtfully and constructively shitting on things like BOB and different records, others just retarded mindless 'this record/poster/whatever is shit sandwich!'

They have become a little more vocal about their likes and dislikes. It's not the blind love in it once was.

wilkins wrote:Is anyone else noticing artwork for these songs when played in VLC?

whoa, I converted an M4A file of this to MP3. never had any artwork on it now it has some creepy pink "Jazz" thing with some girls doing jazz hands.

It's a bit childish to get upset when they don't meet your demands. It's a hard choice bit an easier time will be had if you just try go with them and enjoy the journey.

*saves this quote for future opportunities to irritate dime*
*especially if the next Star Wars film is a heap big pile of muddy terribleness poop*

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

sward wrote:Its interesting to me to read the comments of the various characters here. I actually thought this was a board for fans of Pearl Jam, not necessarily critics of. Neither here nor there as it is the internet and this is often what message boards are all about, but I find it hard to fathom that there are so few true fans left on here. That's not to mean you have to like everything they put out. I certainly don't. But each album has enough on them that I see no reason to stop the support. I'm in the like Backspacer camp, so I guess it puts me in the minority around here an may also be why I don't share a lot of the critical opinion being bandied about. But wow. Kind of mystified at the whole thing.

I take nothing they put out seriously enough that it affects my being. I take each album as they come and pull out the pieces I enjoy and set aside the ones I don't. Every once in awhile, I give those songs another spin to see if I've changed my mind and once in awhile I have. If so..they go into my pile that I enjoy. Rinse/Repeat. I don't sit around for a nanosecond wondering why Eddie is forcing the band to play all these horrendous songs. Ha. Its silly to even write it let alone believe it. Any second on here trying to perceive what goes on within the privacy of the band is wasted.

Anyway. My two cents. I get the discussion and the dissection of all that is Pearl Jam, but I don't get the hostility.

As a counter to this - The Pit has become so sanitized of anyone giving a harsh criticism of the band, how is that enjoyable? I'd rather debate with stip why I hate The Fixer and most of Backspacer than hang around with everyone that just thinks everything the band does is 5 star.

Fair counterpoint, and also the reason I enjoy coming here more than there. I'm not blind to the reasons for critique, I was more confused by my impression that some, not all, don't actually like the band anymore yet continue to offer their opinion of the material as though it isn't biased.

It looks like every link/video etc. for these that I can find has gone. Can anyone offer a working one?

Spoiler: show

PLEEEEEAAAAAAAASE!

dimejinky99 wrote:That's not really true. There's a lot of threads over there, some thoughtfully and constructively shitting on things like BOB and different records, others just retarded mindless 'this record/poster/whatever is shit sandwich!'

They have become a little more vocal about their likes and dislikes. It's not the blind love in it once was.

They've knowingly deleted negative posts in recent times.

sward wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

sward wrote:Its interesting to me to read the comments of the various characters here. I actually thought this was a board for fans of Pearl Jam, not necessarily critics of. Neither here nor there as it is the internet and this is often what message boards are all about, but I find it hard to fathom that there are so few true fans left on here. That's not to mean you have to like everything they put out. I certainly don't. But each album has enough on them that I see no reason to stop the support. I'm in the like Backspacer camp, so I guess it puts me in the minority around here an may also be why I don't share a lot of the critical opinion being bandied about. But wow. Kind of mystified at the whole thing.

I take nothing they put out seriously enough that it affects my being. I take each album as they come and pull out the pieces I enjoy and set aside the ones I don't. Every once in awhile, I give those songs another spin to see if I've changed my mind and once in awhile I have. If so..they go into my pile that I enjoy. Rinse/Repeat. I don't sit around for a nanosecond wondering why Eddie is forcing the band to play all these horrendous songs. Ha. Its silly to even write it let alone believe it. Any second on here trying to perceive what goes on within the privacy of the band is wasted.

Anyway. My two cents. I get the discussion and the dissection of all that is Pearl Jam, but I don't get the hostility.

As a counter to this - The Pit has become so sanitized of anyone giving a harsh criticism of the band, how is that enjoyable? I'd rather debate with stip why I hate The Fixer and most of Backspacer than hang around with everyone that just thinks everything the band does is 5 star.

Fair counterpoint, and also the reason I enjoy coming here more than there. I'm not blind to the reasons for critique, I was more confused by my impression that some, not all, don't actually like the band anymore yet continue to offer their opinion of the material as though it isn't biased.

just wait till given2trade shows up! You ain't seen nothing yet!

b b b b baby you just ain't seen nothing yet!

McParadigm wrote:

It's a bit childish to get upset when they don't meet your demands. It's a hard choice bit an easier time will be had if you just try go with them and enjoy the journey.

*saves this quote for future opportunities to irritate dime*
*especially if the next Star Wars film is a heap big pile of muddy terribleness poop*

Abrams is about to jump ship so it can only get better

sward wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

sward wrote:Its interesting to me to read the comments of the various characters here. I actually thought this was a board for fans of Pearl Jam, not necessarily critics of. Neither here nor there as it is the internet and this is often what message boards are all about, but I find it hard to fathom that there are so few true fans left on here. That's not to mean you have to like everything they put out. I certainly don't. But each album has enough on them that I see no reason to stop the support. I'm in the like Backspacer camp, so I guess it puts me in the minority around here an may also be why I don't share a lot of the critical opinion being bandied about. But wow. Kind of mystified at the whole thing.

I take nothing they put out seriously enough that it affects my being. I take each album as they come and pull out the pieces I enjoy and set aside the ones I don't. Every once in awhile, I give those songs another spin to see if I've changed my mind and once in awhile I have. If so..they go into my pile that I enjoy. Rinse/Repeat. I don't sit around for a nanosecond wondering why Eddie is forcing the band to play all these horrendous songs. Ha. Its silly to even write it let alone believe it. Any second on here trying to perceive what goes on within the privacy of the band is wasted.

Anyway. My two cents. I get the discussion and the dissection of all that is Pearl Jam, but I don't get the hostility.

As a counter to this - The Pit has become so sanitized of anyone giving a harsh criticism of the band, how is that enjoyable? I'd rather debate with stip why I hate The Fixer and most of Backspacer than hang around with everyone that just thinks everything the band does is 5 star.

Fair counterpoint, and also the reason I enjoy coming here more than there. I'm not blind to the reasons for critique, I was more confused by my impression that some, not all, don't actually like the band anymore yet continue to offer their opinion of the material as though it isn't biased.

all opinion is biased

dimejinky99 wrote:

McParadigm wrote:

It's a bit childish to get upset when they don't meet your demands. It's a hard choice bit an easier time will be had if you just try go with them and enjoy the journey.

*saves this quote for future opportunities to irritate dime*
*especially if the next Star Wars film is a heap big pile of muddy terribleness poop*

Abrams is about to jump ship so it can only get better

malice wrote:

sward wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

sward wrote:Its interesting to me to read the comments of the various characters here. I actually thought this was a board for fans of Pearl Jam, not necessarily critics of. Neither here nor there as it is the internet and this is often what message boards are all about, but I find it hard to fathom that there are so few true fans left on here. That's not to mean you have to like everything they put out. I certainly don't. But each album has enough on them that I see no reason to stop the support. I'm in the like Backspacer camp, so I guess it puts me in the minority around here an may also be why I don't share a lot of the critical opinion being bandied about. But wow. Kind of mystified at the whole thing.

I take nothing they put out seriously enough that it affects my being. I take each album as they come and pull out the pieces I enjoy and set aside the ones I don't. Every once in awhile, I give those songs another spin to see if I've changed my mind and once in awhile I have. If so..they go into my pile that I enjoy. Rinse/Repeat. I don't sit around for a nanosecond wondering why Eddie is forcing the band to play all these horrendous songs. Ha. Its silly to even write it let alone believe it. Any second on here trying to perceive what goes on within the privacy of the band is wasted.

Anyway. My two cents. I get the discussion and the dissection of all that is Pearl Jam, but I don't get the hostility.

As a counter to this - The Pit has become so sanitized of anyone giving a harsh criticism of the band, how is that enjoyable? I'd rather debate with stip why I hate The Fixer and most of Backspacer than hang around with everyone that just thinks everything the band does is 5 star.

Fair counterpoint, and also the reason I enjoy coming here more than there. I'm not blind to the reasons for critique, I was more confused by my impression that some, not all, don't actually like the band anymore yet continue to offer their opinion of the material as though it isn't biased.

all opinion is biased

Fuck! You guys get me coming and going!

Strat wrote:

stip wrote:

Strat wrote:

warehouse wrote:

Strat wrote:

warehouse wrote:

Strat wrote:

warehouse wrote:

EJ wrote:

Tuolumne wrote: To connect to fans is not an artistic approach?

that sounds like the polar opposite of art.

dont artists make art with the intention of it causing a reaction?

Within themselves...

so why do they release it to the public?

You'd have to ask them but do you really think the best art is made with the sole intention of soliciting yeah yeah yeahs from the audience?

I know I keep bringing up Neil, and maybe its unfair, but artists like him, dylan etc... Do not make art for the sake of pleasing a fan base. They make their art for themselves and if lucky - fans will grab onto it. If not? They dont give a shit and they keep soldiering on their own path.

yeah, thats unfair, stop comparing them to neil young.

When they stop harping on about Uncle Neil and all theyve learned from him...

I will...

it is unfair--you really need a band to band/ solo to solo comparison.

I dont think so. Sure, there are more shackles being in a group of 5 song writers, but the collective unit can make certain decisions regarding their artistic approach and output.

Fuck yeah they're trying to solicit yeah yeah yeahs from the audience. Add in some "uhhh huhhhs" and "woahh ooos" too. Ever heard "She Loves you" by a band called the Beatles? How about "Man on the Moon" by REM? Oh wait, and "Lithium" by Nirvana?

Pop should not be a dirty word. Pop songwriting is a very difficult craft. Especially when mixed with punk or any qualities that can be a little subversive. But to carry a melody concisely and be able to grab a listener within seconds, and then hold the listener for multiple listens is really difficult.

It's just a different form of songwriting than letting a chord progression simmer and then use a vocal to enhance a mood, like I thnk Cold Confession does. They just chose not to go with it this time. Maybe next time they will. But why dismiss this entire era at this point as some sort of commercial sellout? It's just what they wanted to do at the time. Why is simply shortening a verse, and shortening the vocal melody and taking out delays and echos to be more compact and dynamic and catchy (dirty word?) such a bad thing. It takes a huge amount of effort, and they did it pretty well on Backspacer I thought. They clearly listened to lots of Little Steven 60s garage stuff, lots fo Guided By Voices, lots of early Who, lots of Neil Finn, Buzzcocks and added a little modern sheen to it. They didn't succeed so much and making it subversive but they managed to maintain lots of rock n roll punch. It's good and lots of people agree with me.