Red Mosquito

I've had a very long couple of days so if I am just not understanding you it isn't willful.

track11 wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

track11 wrote:I would argue that women are often treated with MORE respect that what I see in the USA.

Please give examples to back this up, because this sounds like the most laughable assertion I've ever heard.

How am I supposed to prove a negative? The Koran lays an inordinate amount of respect to mothers. In the Hadiths, Mohammad is quoted as saying something to the likes of:

"Do good to serve your mother, then your mother, then your mother, then your father, then the near relatives and then those who come after them."

Ask any Muslim and they will smile at this line and recite it back before you get two words in. This is the first lesson taught to kids, that to respect your mother above all others.

Muslim women, by large, are not objectified to the likes that we see in the USA. In most Muslim families, the father does carry the traditional role of the bread winner, but the mother is the boss of the house. Again, I believe you are thinking of the Gulf, which is Wahhabism, and is as far apart from the Islam of Syria and Lebanon as Buddhism is from Catholicism.

Of course, I am speaking in broad generalizations, but so are you.

This is pretty much the same thing as "honor thy father and thy mother" from the Bible, and Christianity is laced with misogyny, so this isn't selling me. Seems to just be pushing bullshit familial obligation and not saying much of anything about women.

I also want to make it clear that I don't want to sound overly negative about the opinions expressed in this thread. To be clear, this has probably been the most thoughtful, intelligent, nuanced discussion I have seen since the Paris attacks. I also don't have adequate time to devote to this thread, but I just wanted to implore folks not to equate Wahhabism with the other 99% of Islam. And if you ever do get a chance to visit Lebanon (this may be the most open, free, frustrating, beautiful, outrageous country I have ever visited), or Iran, or Syria (if it ever returns to a semblance of what it was), DO. Preferably, do so with someone who has family there, so you can see the inner workings of the society and family. It may be surprising, but Iranians, Syrians, Lebanese, Palestinians (!!), etc LOVE Americans. They hate US policies, but they always admire the promise of America, and the vast majority are smart enough to not conflate the two.

stip wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:

stip wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:

stip wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:

stip wrote: when this issue comes up it is almost always in the context of 'because these people are non-progressive/conservative/reactionary we should treat them like terrorist suspects. And that's what people push back against--treating the entire religion in that capacity. Speaking of straw men, how often do you see prominent liberal voices defending the values and ideology of islam on these issues (other than denying an innate connection between islam and violence)? As opposed to the quite prominent string of conservative voices who strongly imply or outright assert the above?

I don't know man, you're perspective seems severely skewed here. Based on comments like "oh god yes. Some of the more extreme ones. This country is full of reactionary lunatics", I doubt we'll find much common ground. You must have to deal with some severely stupid kids at school. What I am seeing is probably skewed in the opposite direction because of the people I'm surrounded with.

We should push back, but we shouldn't be willfully ignorant or silent out of fear of causing more harm or aiding one side or the other. We should seek truth. With many of your posts, you seem to be implying that we shouldn't talk about it because of Trump or whatever.

edited for clarity.

My comments have nothing to do with the kids I teach or the people I interact with. They are informed by the horrific things religious leaders say, registration elected and aspiring elected officials propose, and the support they are given by not insignificant swaths of the population. If I'm motivated later I'll find some links


And it would be helpful to me if you restated your position since you've accused me of attacking straw men. My larger point is that I am

A: denying a causal link between Islam and terrorism
B: denying that most Muslims are extremists insofar as their religion is likely to incite them to violence.
C: even if the above were true we should politically be circumspect about how public officials talk about these things because it gives terrorists legitimacy in their home regions they might not otherwise enjoy and makes the problems we ostensibly hope to solve without murdering everyone that much harder to solve.

This has nothing to do with political correctness, or defending regressive or reactionary elements of the religion/ideology. The charge of political correctness is misdirection all bullshit that absolves people of the responsibility of having to engage a position they don't like and is itself a straw man. Find me a major liberal opinion leader who defends any reactionary Islamic position and does more than reject the claim that there is something fundamental about the structure of Islam that makes it more likely to breed terrorism than any other fundamentalist ideology.

I don't think I ever accused you or anyone else defending reactionary Islamic positions or even being PC. I'd have to dig through this thread for examples, but like LV said, you seem to be projecting a lot on me, or you are arguing with someone else. I dont disagree with B or C, though I don't think I've said otherwise.

Most liberal leaders offer vague platitudes about "Religion of peace" and other ignorant nonsense, and those attitudes are immensely damaging IMO. Most conservative leaders are definitely assholes and hawks but its crazy to me to think the US's current attitudes about homosexuality, women, etc are in any way comparable to those in the Islamic World, in either severity or quantity. They are light years apart.

Those platitudes are essentially always in response to the equation of Islam with terrorism and violence (which you just implied in your post above), or offered by political leaders trying to be responsible as per point C (even GW bush said as much).

The US attitudes as a whole are far from equivalent, but I certainly believe there are populations in the US that are not far off

I do believe there is some connection with Islam and terrorism and violence (we obviously disagree). Politicians fanning the flames or offering platitudes in reaction doesn't change the validity of that belief. But none of this has anything to do with what anyone here has said. American political rhetoric seems to be some other issue brought up by you out of nowhere that no one seems to disagree with.

you just disagreed with it like one post ago!

Most liberal leaders offer vague platitudes about "Religion of peace" and other ignorant nonsense, and those attitudes are immensely damaging IMO.

Jesus Christ I am not interested in this conversation but you keep going on about it! If you are fine with ignorant platitudes as a meager counter to right wing rhetoric, then we do disagree, but otherwise I have no argument against saying that populists crying "muslims are terrorists!" is bad, which is what I thought you have been getting at all day. Fucking politics!

BurtReynolds wrote:

track11 wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

track11 wrote:I would argue that women are often treated with MORE respect that what I see in the USA.

Please give examples to back this up, because this sounds like the most laughable assertion I've ever heard.

How am I supposed to prove a negative? The Koran lays an inordinate amount of respect to mothers. In the Hadiths, Mohammad is quoted as saying something to the likes of:

"Do good to serve your mother, then your mother, then your mother, then your father, then the near relatives and then those who come after them."

Ask any Muslim and they will smile at this line and recite it back before you get two words in. This is the first lesson taught to kids, that to respect your mother above all others.

Muslim women, by large, are not objectified to the likes that we see in the USA. In most Muslim families, the father does carry the traditional role of the bread winner, but the mother is the boss of the house. Again, I believe you are thinking of the Gulf, which is Wahhabism, and is as far apart from the Islam of Syria and Lebanon as Buddhism is from Catholicism.

Of course, I am speaking in broad generalizations, but so are you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Jordan

Right, don't insult the king. I am talking about the PEOPLE, not the stupid governmental policies. Don't get me started on King Hussein.

stip wrote:I've had a very long couple of days so if I am just not understanding you it isn't willful.

I really need to get to work.

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

track11 wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

track11 wrote:I would argue that women are often treated with MORE respect that what I see in the USA.

Please give examples to back this up, because this sounds like the most laughable assertion I've ever heard.

How am I supposed to prove a negative? The Koran lays an inordinate amount of respect to mothers. In the Hadiths, Mohammad is quoted as saying something to the likes of:

"Do good to serve your mother, then your mother, then your mother, then your father, then the near relatives and then those who come after them."

Ask any Muslim and they will smile at this line and recite it back before you get two words in. This is the first lesson taught to kids, that to respect your mother above all others.

Muslim women, by large, are not objectified to the likes that we see in the USA. In most Muslim families, the father does carry the traditional role of the bread winner, but the mother is the boss of the house. Again, I believe you are thinking of the Gulf, which is Wahhabism, and is as far apart from the Islam of Syria and Lebanon as Buddhism is from Catholicism.

Of course, I am speaking in broad generalizations, but so are you.

This is pretty much the same thing as "honor thy father and thy mother" from the Bible, and Christianity is laced with misogyny, so this isn't selling me. Seems to just be pushing bullshit familial obligation and not saying much of anything about women.

First, it's not the same. It is telling you to honor your mother MORE than your father. "Bullshit familial obligation"? Geez, I guess that is ONE way to think of it! Of course, there are other viable conclusions...

(Scene: LoathedVermin and his beautiful bride are set to be married in the church of GOD. Priests (partners, shhhh) Santorum and Huckabee preside):

Priest Huck:
Dear children of God, you have come today to pledge your love before God and before the Church here present today in the person of the priest, your families and friends.
In becoming husband and wife you give yourselves to each other for life. You promise to be true and faithful, to support and cherish each other until death, so that your years together will be the living out in love of the pledge you now make. May your love for each other reflect the enduring love of Christ for his Church.
As you face the future together, keep in mind that the sacrament of marriage unites you with Christ, and brings you, through the years, the grace and blessing of God our Father. Marriage is from God: he alone can give you the happiness which goes beyond human expectation, and which grows deeper through the difficulties and struggles of life.
Put your trust in God as you set out together in life. Make your home a centre of Christian family life. (In this you will bequeath to your children a heritage more lasting than temporal wealth.)
The Christian home makes Christ and his Church present in the world of everyday things. May all who enter your home find there the presence of the Lord: for he has said: "Where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
Now as you are about to exchange your marriage vows, the Church wishes to be assured that you appreciate the meaning of what you do, and so I ask you:

Have you come here of your own free will and choice and without compulsion to marry each other?

Bride and Groom: We have.

Priest: Will you love and honour each other in marriage all the days of your life?

Bride: I will

LoathedVermin: Honor? HONOR? You pushin' some bullshit marital obligation, father? FUCK YOU MAN!

I mean, if you say women aren't as objectified there as here, ok, but what if they want to be objectified? I mean, are there nude beaches? lots of midriffs showing? Shitty Miley Cyrus videos? Do they have any options here?

track11 wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

track11 wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

track11 wrote:I would argue that women are often treated with MORE respect that what I see in the USA.

Please give examples to back this up, because this sounds like the most laughable assertion I've ever heard.

How am I supposed to prove a negative? The Koran lays an inordinate amount of respect to mothers. In the Hadiths, Mohammad is quoted as saying something to the likes of:

"Do good to serve your mother, then your mother, then your mother, then your father, then the near relatives and then those who come after them."

Ask any Muslim and they will smile at this line and recite it back before you get two words in. This is the first lesson taught to kids, that to respect your mother above all others.

Muslim women, by large, are not objectified to the likes that we see in the USA. In most Muslim families, the father does carry the traditional role of the bread winner, but the mother is the boss of the house. Again, I believe you are thinking of the Gulf, which is Wahhabism, and is as far apart from the Islam of Syria and Lebanon as Buddhism is from Catholicism.

Of course, I am speaking in broad generalizations, but so are you.

This is pretty much the same thing as "honor thy father and thy mother" from the Bible, and Christianity is laced with misogyny, so this isn't selling me. Seems to just be pushing bullshit familial obligation and not saying much of anything about women.

First, it's not the same. It is telling you to honor your mother MORE than your father. "Bullshit familial obligation"? Geez, I guess that is ONE way to think of it! Of course, there are other viable conclusions...

Guess what: teaching to honor the mother more than the father is called sexism. Or just a fucked up, arbitrary lesson.

track11 wrote:(Scene: LoathedVermin and his beautiful bride are set to be married in the church of GOD. Priests (partners, shhhh) Santorum and Huckabee preside):

Priest Huck:
Dear children of God, you have come today to pledge your love before God and before the Church here present today in the person of the priest, your families and friends.
In becoming husband and wife you give yourselves to each other for life. You promise to be true and faithful, to support and cherish each other until death, so that your years together will be the living out in love of the pledge you now make. May your love for each other reflect the enduring love of Christ for his Church.
As you face the future together, keep in mind that the sacrament of marriage unites you with Christ, and brings you, through the years, the grace and blessing of God our Father. Marriage is from God: he alone can give you the happiness which goes beyond human expectation, and which grows deeper through the difficulties and struggles of life.
Put your trust in God as you set out together in life. Make your home a centre of Christian family life. (In this you will bequeath to your children a heritage more lasting than temporal wealth.)
The Christian home makes Christ and his Church present in the world of everyday things. May all who enter your home find there the presence of the Lord: for he has said: "Where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
Now as you are about to exchange your marriage vows, the Church wishes to be assured that you appreciate the meaning of what you do, and so I ask you:

Have you come here of your own free will and choice and without compulsion to marry each other?

Bride and Groom: We have.

Priest: Will you love and honour each other in marriage all the days of your life?

Bride: I will

LoathedVermin: Honor? HONOR? You pushin' some bullshit marital obligation, father? FUCK YOU MAN!

You're missing the point. You choose who you marry. You're making that decision to commit. You have no say who births you. You don't owe them anything if the relationship is toxic. Arbitrary familial obligation grinds my gears almost as much as sexism.

Jesus man! You ain't fooling around! I am pretty sure I could post a picture of my two year old, the cutest thing on this planet, and you'd rip it apart. I don't think that is what I meant, but I doubt there is any convincing you. That's ok with me.

I come to PLAY

I like this track11 guy - he makes a lot of sense!

let's mma fight rangi

Alright, but no titty grabbing when we grapple

Rangi Guy wrote:Alright, but no titty grabbing when we grapple

ugh FINE

Big money on Rangi. First round finish.

Kaius wrote:Big money on Rangi. First round finish.

Well duh

Pretty sure when ISIS takes over a village and r*pes the women and claims them as wives doesn't qualify as showing more respect to women.