Red Mosquito

I mean I don't even care about guns, just pointing out that he described one of the main founding principles of this country as "hideous", that's all.

stip wrote:Even taking this as a given (and let's not overstate this as strictly an American thing - Europe has grappled with racial and ethnic tensions while we were still a water route to Asia) these simply explain why Americans may have more violence. They are not arguments against gun control. If anything they enhance the need for it - like how you don't leave sharp knives out for toddlers

I don't disagree with you on this, it just seems like what people really want is not an elimination of the ability to buy guns, but less violence. The way to accomplish this is through cultural transformation... teaching compassion, teaching them to care for their neighbors and communities and country, teaching that people who look differently than you are not there to hurt you even if someone who looks like them (or prays like them) once did, teaching ways to deal with anger by giving people alternatives and outlets and opportunities. Not by "hiding the knives".

b_i_revisited wrote:

stip wrote:Even taking this as a given (and let's not overstate this as strictly an American thing - Europe has grappled with racial and ethnic tensions while we were still a water route to Asia) these simply explain why Americans may have more violence. They are not arguments against gun control. If anything they enhance the need for it - like how you don't leave sharp knives out for toddlers

I don't disagree with you on this, it just seems like what people really want is not an elimination of the ability to buy guns, but less violence. The way to accomplish this is through cultural transformation... teaching compassion, teaching them to care for their neighbors and communities and country, teaching that people who look differently than you are not there to hurt you even if someone who looks like them (or prays like them) once did, teaching ways to deal with anger by giving people alternatives and outlets and opportunities. Not by "hiding the knives".

Of course while that multi generational transformation is happening, if it is even possible, hiding the knives is not a bad idea. I fully expect my daughters to be able to use knives without stabbing themselves someday, but they can't play with them now.

And once again I can't help but be struck by the fact that societies that have yet to full solve the above problems have somehow managed to reduce the amount of gun violence in their society by limiting access to guns.

This not rocket science. It actually couldn't be simpler.

I know it's probably only an extreme end of the population but how much of the gun ownership populations argument and their distrust of the government a factor in all this?
I don't know the numbers that hold that view but it's something that seems to come up a good bit. Has that ever been addressed? And what causes it?

Talking in extremes, events like Waco and the OTT government reaction to it don't get mentioned anymore really. Are the gun nuts imagining something like that scene could happen them?

dimejinky99 wrote:I know it's probably only an extreme end of the population but how much of the gun ownership populations argument and their distrust of the government a factor in all this?
I don't know the numbers that hold that view but it's something that seems to come up a good bit. Has that ever been addressed? And what causes it?

Talking in extremes, events like Waco and the OTT government reaction to it don't get mentioned anymore really. Are the gun nuts imagining something like that scene could happen them?

yes.

b_i_revisited wrote:The way to accomplish this is through cultural transformation... teaching compassion, teaching them to care for their neighbors and communities and country, teaching that people who look differently than you are not there to hurt you even if someone who looks like them (or prays like them) once did, teaching ways to deal with anger by giving people alternatives and outlets and opportunities.

Have you ever been to America?

First of all, welcome back b_i. I missed ya, and if you're having problems using your old account, just let me know if you want me to do anything to help out.

Second, I'm certainly sympathetic to your point of view, as my original post in this thread will indicate, as well as what I mentioned just recently in the thread here. I feel it will be a long, cultural slog for things to change.

Chicago Introduces New Citywide Gun-Sharing Stations

CHICAGO—Touting the program’s convenience and affordability, Chicago officials unveiled Monday the city’s new gun-sharing service, “QuikShot,” which allows individuals to check out a loaded firearm for short periods of time.

The municipal initiative, through which users can rent semiautomatic pistols, shotguns, rifles, and submachine guns at more than 250 self-service kiosks, has reportedly been designed to make firepower easily available to residents and tourists alike nearly everywhere within the city limits.

“QuikShot lets anyone with a credit card walk up to one of our street-side firearm stations, select a gun, and head out into the Windy City fully armed in just a few seconds,” program director Arvind Reynolds told reporters, noting that borrowers can either rent their weapon for increments of 30 minutes or withdraw it for a full 24 hours if they plan on using it throughout the day. “With QuikShot, you and your friends can each take a Beretta up to Wrigley Field, or you can head to an outdoor concert in Millennium Park with a concealed 9mm revolver, or you can simply take in the great view of the Magnificent Mile from the roof deck of the Hancock tower through a scoped sniper rifle. The possibilities are truly endless with QuikShot.”

“And if the guns at one station are all checked out, users only have to walk a block or two to the next one in order to find a loaded firearm,” he added. “So whether you’ve been planning an outing for a while or simply decided to head out in the spur of the moment, QuikShot has you covered.”

According to sources, after paying a small registration fee, QuikShot users may rent a firearm as often as they wish in neighborhoods ranging from Edgewater in the north, to the downtown Loop business district, to Hyde Park on the South Side, allowing them to brandish and discharge one or more rounds wherever they choose to in the city. Additionally, due to higher demand, Chicago officials said that multiple QuikShot kiosks would be opened around highly trafficked destinations, such as Navy Pier, the Art Institute, the Water Tower Place shopping center, and the Chicago Lakefront running and cycling paths.

Because the firearms are expected to see heavy use, Reynolds confirmed that repair crews would regularly monitor the city’s reholstering docks in order to clean and reload the weapons, as well as to replace guns that have jammed or misfired during operation, ensuring that borrowers aren’t inconvenienced by their gun malfunctioning at a crucial moment.

“It’s a great addition to the city—nothing beats being able to run out of my apartment and have a gun in my hands whenever I want.”
Users, however, are reportedly expected to provide their own protective Kevlar body armor, with program administrators adding that the city of Chicago is not liable for any injuries incurred due to use of its rentals.

“It’s a great addition to the city—nothing beats being able to run out of my apartment and have a gun in my hands whenever I want,” said Lincoln Park resident Keith Madsen, 32, noting that a QuikShot membership is much more economical than purchasing and maintaining his own extended magazine AR-15 assault rifle. “Even if I’m not necessarily planning on firing a gun on any given day, it’s always nice to know that I have the option if something comes up.”

Sources confirmed that the city is planning to expand the service in the months ahead by purchasing more guns, with the goal of increasing its publicly available arsenal to more than 65,000 weapons in anticipation of the hot summer months, when QuikShot usage is expected to reach its peak.

“QuikShot is so easy that I’m actually shooting a handgun way more often than I normally would,” said local resident Danny Taylor, who participated in a pilot trial of the program, as he deposited an empty .357 Magnum with the QuikShot logo imprinted on its grip at a Rogers Park reholstering station. “Whether I’m going to a house party or just to the liquor store, it’s nice to know that I can grab a piece, use it for as long as I want, and then drop it off without a lot of fuss.”

“In fact, I’m thinking about checking out one tomorrow morning before I head into the office,” he continued.

Spoiler: show

http://www.theonion.com/article/chicago-introduces-new-citywide-gun-sharing-statio-37797

This was from a surprisingly honest article in the Washington Post:





Though the article doesn't explicitly mention it, IMHO the graphs appear to suggest that maybe the reason why different groups in America have such diverging opinions about gun control is because they experience gun violence differently, and thus may require different, more targeted policy approaches to reducing the number of overall deaths other than "ban". For example, broader availability of mental health services for middle-aged white men (and the removal of social stigma for accessing them) would probably be an effective way to greatly reducing gun-related deaths without having to fight the gun lobby if society were willing to commit resources that approach.

Happy new year.
Father shoots his 2yr old, then himself

Jesus.

Sgt. Crackpot wrote:Jesus.

That guy died, sarge

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

Sgt. Crackpot wrote:Jesus.

That guy died, sarge

That toddler died, Ruddo.

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

Sgt. Crackpot wrote:Jesus.

That guy died, sarge

That toddler died, Ruddo.

I meant Jesus

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

Sgt. Crackpot wrote:Jesus.

That guy died, sarge

That toddler died, Ruddo.

I meant Jesus

So did I.

Green Habit wrote:This is a preemptive post that will preserve one of N&D's most popular thread titles.

This also gives me a chance to make sure that my (somewhat) unique views on guns are made clear, as they seem to be have been scattered all over the place in the old thread.

Let's start with the Second Amendment. I do see it as including a firm declaration of a constitutional right to individual self defense, of which includes the ability to fortify that right with tools, such as weapons. However, where I think Scalia goes astray in his Heller decision is by saying that a certain class of weapons is constitutionally protected: namely, "to weapons that were not specifically designed for military use and were not employed in a military capacity." I think comparing the AR-15 to the M16 is an example of how superficial that classification can be. I don't think that any weapon, armor, or what have you should be granted automatic constitutional protection. If governments can find a way to affirm that right of self defense with less lethal options available, then I could see a complete ban on more lethal options be more justifiable in that regard.

Nonetheless, Heller is likely to be sound law for at least the near future (it likely comes down to who replaces Kennedy), and generally speaking, I'm fine with the notion that a person has a right to own a gun. I also have no issue with those who own guns for recreational purposes, like hunting, shooting ranges, or what have you. It's not my cup of tea, for sure, but it's not my business to say what should and shouldn't entertain you.

When it comes to self defense, however, I say this: even if people to have a right to own a gun, I strongly question the notion that owning a gun is a wise proposition for most people. I'm fine for the few people who have had extensive training with a gun, such as military veterans or police officers. But for many others, I fear that too many are buying guns with the minimal requirements required, and then falling under the delusion that they will be able to successfully protect themselves when faced with the sudden and intense stress that they'll face in that situation. I fear that on the whole, it's more likely that adding a gun to the conflict will make things more dangerous instead of less dangerous. To use an NFL analogy, I fear that the Jovan Belcher scenario is more common than the Sean Taylor scenario.

Finally, I've never understood for most people as to why they feel that owning a gun is necessary for their sense of well-being and self-defense. Home intrusions, mass shootings, and the like are tragic and regrettable, but don't most of us make it through life without having to endure such horrible situations? Is the United States really that dangerous that we have to resort to gun ownership to feel safe? I'm skeptical.

Part of me would love to see nothing more than guns outlawed in the US. But then there is that part of me that knows my own fucking Government cant be trusted.

InThePresentTense wrote:Part of me would love to see nothing more than guns outlawed in the US. But then there is that part of me that knows my own fucking Government cant be trusted.

If the government's really going to go after you, guns aren't going to help you.

Green Habit wrote:

InThePresentTense wrote:Part of me would love to see nothing more than guns outlawed in the US. But then there is that part of me that knows my own fucking Government cant be trusted.

If the government's really going to go after you, guns aren't going to help you.

Yeah, yet a bunch of Militants and Terrorists have proven all around the middle east just the opposite. You underestimate a fair number of Americans who would do the same if and when the government were to turn on it's citizens. It would be a very similar but far more well equipped, well prepared fight than you see abroad. History of warfare including in our own back yard proves just that. A well armed population in fact keeps a Government on it's best behavior more times than not.

Wow.