Red Mosquito

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

Coach wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

Chris_H_2 wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

Chris_H_2 wrote:guys, remember, this is still Star Wars we're talking about, not the Godfather.

God I hate this argument. I like ESB and ROTJ more than The Godfather anyway.

but why do people criticize this movie for not being something that it never was or never intended to be? it's like saying south park's animations suck compared to a Pixar movie. yes there are plot holes. yes the dialogue can be corny. and yes the scenes can be predictable as all get out. but that's star wars.

btw, if you recall, I never saw the godfather

What? How am I expecting it to be something it's not? I just want it to be GOOD. The OT were GOOD MOVIES. This is lazy, pandering garbage.

What part of that Rey dream sequence force forward/backward in light of JJ's explanation of how that went down was lazy or unoriginal?

You mean the "Luke's Dagobah Vision 2.0" sequence?

The death star/Star killer base is clearly a lift/hommage and unoriginal (I'm not sure it's lazy). But the above is petty. Complaining about the idea that prophecy/visions get used in a movie universe that is held together by the fact that prophecies/visions are real things is silly. It's one step above bitching about the continuing presence of light sabers or the force.

Do you think Batman vs Superman is going to have superheroes and villains fighting each other? Will property be damaged? Haven't we already seen this? Lazy filmmaking.


And you know what was really annoying about Jurassic World? All those dinosaurs. I wish they had done something more original with it.

It's too bad they didn't leave Captain America out of Civil War. That would have been bold

Where does all that info about the Rey's vision come from?

Coach wrote:

stip wrote:

Coach wrote:

stip wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:The OT not dealing with Vader's reasons for being evil isn't a flaw. Do you guys need every little thing explained? Jeez.

I'm with LV on this. I don't necessarily need every reason why something is the case to be the case. We knew that Vader was good, was seduced, and the only relevant part of his backstory is any lingering goodness that can be teased out by his son (a nice inversion to the Ren/Han sequence). Sometimes you're better off with the mystery.

I found it to be lazy on Lucas' part. You could have tossed in a force forward/backward for Vader in the OT. Oh wait, we had to wait 30 years for JJ to invent that.

Look I was excited to see a whole trilogy devoted to Anakin's gradual descent into vader. The problem was that it was so hamfistedly done. But if you're going to tell the story it deserves more than a flashback. And since Vader as already who he was there was no need to hint at anything as we got with the artfully done Rey sequence (which I'm really looking forward to seeing again). The flash forward promises future mysteries as we discover who Rey is. It seems less important to discover who Vader was.

Forget about the prequels. The one thing we all agree on is that those were poor.

I'm simply suggesting that much like when they teased the back of Vader's head with helmet off in Empire, something trippy/spooky could have been done in A New Hope that flashed forward and back with Vader. Thus, there's still some ambiguity but some answers.

I think at that point it would have detracted from the humanity of the scene--Vader revealed to just be a sad decaying person, whose dying wish was to look at his son with his own eyes. It's pretty poignant stuff.

stip wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

Coach wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

Chris_H_2 wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

Chris_H_2 wrote:guys, remember, this is still Star Wars we're talking about, not the Godfather.

God I hate this argument. I like ESB and ROTJ more than The Godfather anyway.

but why do people criticize this movie for not being something that it never was or never intended to be? it's like saying south park's animations suck compared to a Pixar movie. yes there are plot holes. yes the dialogue can be corny. and yes the scenes can be predictable as all get out. but that's star wars.

btw, if you recall, I never saw the godfather

What? How am I expecting it to be something it's not? I just want it to be GOOD. The OT were GOOD MOVIES. This is lazy, pandering garbage.

What part of that Rey dream sequence force forward/backward in light of JJ's explanation of how that went down was lazy or unoriginal?

You mean the "Luke's Dagobah Vision 2.0" sequence?

The death star/Star killer base is clearly a lift/hommage and unoriginal (I'm not sure it's lazy). But the above is petty. Complaining about the idea that prophecy/visions get used in a movie universe that is held together by the fact that prophecies/visions are real things is silly. It's one step above bitching about the continuing presence of light sabers or the force.

Do you think Batman vs Superman is going to have superheroes and villains fighting each other? Will property be damaged? Haven't we already seen this? Lazy filmmaking.


And you know what was really annoying about Jurassic World? All those dinosaurs. I wish they had done something more original with it.

It's too bad they didn't leave Captain America out of Civil War. That would have been bold

lol.

Come to think of it, the contrast between Luke's reaction to his vision in EST and Rey's reaction to her vision in TFA is a pretty perfect Gen X vs. Millennials moment. In EST, Luke has a scary, challenging vision and resultantly reflects on some hard truths - tries to sort out what it meant. Rey has a scary, challenging vision and resultantly cries, throws a fit, and runs out into the woods to pout.

LoathedVermin72 wrote:Come to think of it, the contrast between Luke's reaction to his vision in EST and Rey's reaction to her vision in TFA is a pretty perfect Gen X vs. Millennials moment. In EST, Luke has a scary, challenging vision and resultantly reflects on some hard truths - tries to sort out what it meant. Rey has a scary, challenging vision and resultantly cries, throws a fit, and runs out into the woods to pout.

it's probably because she's a chick

It's like people complaining about Rey starting out on a desert. Yes, that's where Luke and anakin began but:

1. There are literally only 5 types of planets we ever see in star wars, and each one is an environmental theme (and see skitch's early point about filming on location and how that limits you)

2. The orphan starting alone is a standard hero's journey archtype. It wasn't original in Star Wars. It wasn't original in Harry Potter. But it doesn't need to be original. It helps us resonate with the character precisely because it isn't.

3. The fact that she's stuck on such a shit hole (worse than Tattoine) make her desire to go back and her longing for her family more poigniant. If she wanted to return to Maz's lush paradise planet who could blame her.

4. Luke grew up with a family. She grew up alone.

5. Tatooine had a civilization--poor and rural, but it was there. Luke grew up on a sandy frontier. Rey grew up in a wasteland and they did invest it with a different feel. If you get hung up on the presence of sand you're not looking beyond a pretty superficial level,.

6. Since Rey was abandoned (she was put there deliberately) some far out of the way place where no one would ever think to look (unlike the ridiculous decision to leave Luke with his actualy fucking uncle) makes sense.

stip, is there anything in this movie that you don't consider foundational SW?

Similarly, the presence of a bar in a New Hope should not mean that bars are now no longer allowed to be used, and in a vast multi species society these bars will be full of different types of creatures. A bar as a place to meet unsavory people/get information is another standard storytelling trope. reusing it is not a big deal.

Again, the only thing that really jumps out to me as a clear lift is Starkiller base, and even that takes far more of its cues from Jedi than it does from Star Wars (the elite squad deactivating the shield, the rebels stuck in a battle they can't win until the shields are down). There is no trench run, but a few ships do fly inside the machine to blow it up. And it led to a very cool fight and provided a backdrop for 4 major story arcs (Han, Rey, Kylo, Finn). The storytelling was well done even if they setting was a bit familiar.


My major storytelling issue with Force Awakens is the series of leaps/coincidences (the Falcon happened to be on Jakku, Han happened to be in the area, Maz happened to have luke's lightsaber). But in a movie that moved along so briskly, with so many great sequences, and managed to catch us up on 30 years of history, reintroduce many inconic characters, launch 4 major new characters, and reestablish the feel of the OT I am willing to overlook the gaps in storytelling.

After all

A New Hope: Ben just HAPPENS to be there to save Luke, the Empire doesn't destroy the one jettisoned escape pod, no one noticed the millennium falcon just hanging out waiting to make its move

Empire: Han just HAPPENS to show up to save luke before he freezes to death (didn't we JUST see this a movie ago?!), Luke somehow does all his jedi training in like three days, and just happens to crashland his x-wing a block from Yoda's house

Jedi: the overly convoluted plan to save Han

Etc.

Yea i dont need those plot holes filled in. It doesnt matter. I believe this is what JJ was talking about when Kasdan told him to the trust the audience. I dont need to know exactly how and who the first order, or what the republic/resistance relationship is, or why the Falcon was on there. Its easy to read between the lines and ultimately it just doesnt fucking matter.

LoathedVermin72 wrote:stip, is there anything in this movie that you don't consider foundational SW?

I've said (as I just did in that post I was writing while you made this one) that the Starkiller base is probably overly familiar (but it's a well crafted sequence so I don't know that it's lazy).


But otherwise light sabers, mentors, skywalkers, rebellion/resistance vs. Empire/First order, light side/dark side struggles, iconic ships --yes these are foundational--part of the basic language of the series.

Some things like Jakkus are certainly meant to evoke parallels to the start of Luke's journey, but they are well crafted, well designed, and they make sense as story telling decisions. What this movie largely avoided was throwing shit into the films just to get a pop from the audience--and it was basically never distracting.

The issue is whether or not the film executed these familiar themes in interesting ways. And 9 times out of 10 it was successful (upon a first viewing).

Strat wrote:Yea i dont need those plot holes filled in. It doesnt matter. I believe this is what JJ was talking about when Kasdan told him to the trust the audience. I dont need to know exactly how and who the first order, or what the republic/resistance relationship is, or why the Falcon was on there. Its easy to read between the lines and ultimately it just doesnt fucking matter.

Exactly, and to the better, I find myself more intrigued by the questions rather than annoyed by the gaps, which bodes well.

Strat wrote:Yea i dont need those plot holes filled in. It doesnt matter. I believe this is what JJ was talking about when Kasdan told him to the trust the audience. I dont need to know exactly how and who the first order, or what the republic/resistance relationship is, or why the Falcon was on there. Its easy to read between the lines and ultimately it just doesnt fucking matter.

lololololol

regarding rey's ability to harness the force so quickly: it's possible that she received some training from luke at the school before ren wreaked havoc, and that she'd forgotten it/blocked it out til it was unlocked by ren or the flashback dream or whatever.

spike wrote:regarding rey's ability to harness the force so quickly: it's possible that she received some training from luke at the school before ren wreaked havoc, and that she'd forgotten it/blocked it out til it was unlocked by ren or the flashback dream or whatever.

I like that theory. I hope it pans out. I was definitely taken aback by how quickly she mastered this. I don't mind that she held her own with Kylo since Kylo was seriousy hurt from both his wound from Chewie and then the fight with Finn, but I like it more if she had at least some training that was awoken.

I am pretty confident based on what we've seen/people have brought up that she was being trained and was brought to jakku to keep her away from Ren (which also explains why the dude with the last bit of the map was also on the planet). Whether she's his daughter remains to be seen.

I wouldn't care if she is a skywalker. This is the space Jesus lineage in a galaxy governed by mystic principles, destiny, etc. It's an important family and so of course its members would keep on getting swept up in larger events. It's an example of what I mean when I talk about stuff being foundational to the star wars universe.

stip wrote:

bada wrote:Yeah the prequels demystified Vader and in a lot of way ruined one of the greatest screen villains ever.

But they COULD have done it well. The idea is fine (though not necessary) but since you're peeling back the curtain on one of the most intriguing villains ever you gotta do it right.

Yep I'm tempted to say a better actor would have made a difference but there were plenty of good actors in the prequels that gave wooden performances so I'll just blame George.

please save us gareth edwards

LoathedVermin72 wrote:please save us gareth edwards

Is he the Rogue One guy? I didn't like godzilla very much.

I'm fine with all the callbacks in the last movie but I hope going forward they give us some new ideas.