Red Mosquito

He complains that he needs to get the elite of the world, but then has H1-Bs applications for mid range codemonkey jobs.

BurtReynolds wrote:He complains that he needs to get the elite of the world, but then has H1-Bs applications for mid range codemonkey jobs.

What makes that argument make even less sense is that AI agents will replace those same devs by the end of this decade.

Trag, the immigration rules in the 20th century were very different than they are today. One way to look at it is to think how you would feel if the identities were different. If this was black people being forced to take below market rate salaries and work excessive hours at the threat of being forced out of the country would you feel the same? If this was teachers being replaced by foreign workers would you feel the same?

Musk vs. Bannon is going to be a fun watch.

tragabigzanda wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:Trag, the immigration rules in the 20th century were very different than they are today. One way to look at it is to think how you would feel if the identities were different. If this was black people being forced to take below market rate salaries and work excessive hours at the threat of being forced out of the country would you feel the same? If this was teachers being replaced by foreign workers would you feel the same?

To be honest, I don’t feel much of anything about it; I think where my curiosity goes is A) Are the author’s assumptions about a functional anti-meritocracy accurate? And B) Is it fair to bifurcate “American” from “Immigrant-American” when our whole system is built on stolen Indigenous land anyway?

But also what Ruddo said.

A.) Lawsuits against InfoSys and Cognizent have made it clear that their business model is fundamentally anti-meritocratic and they allow companies (Google, IBM, Tesla, etc.) avoid the labor costs and labor rights of US born workers while still extracting value from established US common and social resources.

B.) All land is conquered land. All of it. Everywhere. Too pretend there a valid equivalent between the rules and motivations of H1B immigration policy in the world of today and immigration/colonization in the world of 150 years ago as an abstraction is ridiculous. We live in a completely different world. And to lump all immigrants under one label is just as inappropriate an approach and we should be suspicious of the motivates of anyone who does. The folks who do know that what the H1B program has become is morally wrong, they are just scared to point it out due to the disparate demographic impact so they hide beyond such a bifurcation.

Lol I hate this guy

tragabigzanda wrote:
B) That's not a fair read of my comment (or it could very well be that I was not clear enough). I'm working closely with Indigenous economic development efforts every day -- particularly related to STEM industries -- and they have told me repeatedly "Everyone's talking about DEI and importing a workforce, meanwhile we're 100 yards out trying to peek over the fence." It's less about what happened 150 years ago, and more about engaging a historically disenfranchised group of people -- who were here first -- in any meaningful dialogue around workforce development and capitalist structures that drive it.

Ah, I understand now. IMO it's not a separate issue. When the companies that have the resources to find and hire those folks won't because they can get indentured servants for below market rate, being indigenous or not doesn't matter as there is no meaningful dialogue to be had when there are 8 billion potential candidates to choose from.

Good number crunching on what's actually happened over the last few years: https://x.com/RobertMSterling/status/18 ... 8535110953

tragabigzanda wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:l

A.) Lawsuits against InfoSys and Cognizent have made it clear that their business model is fundamentally anti-meritocratic and they allow companies (Google, IBM, Tesla, etc.) avoid the labor costs and labor rights of US born workers while still extracting value from established US common and social resources.

Thinking more on this: I am skeptical the GOP will actually arrive at a solution that sees companies paying hire wages to anyone to any meaningful extent. And that my anecdote about our family’s Asian friends — despite their migration happening under a different set of protocols and economic circumstances — is a reminder for me that immigrants add tremendous value to our country, both in economic and non-economic terms. And I can’t help but feel that the H1B debate, while inclusive of some very fair points about the tech elite and their relationship to federal subsidies and cheap labor, will ultimately be used as a football to keep wages lower while simultaneously advancing the anti-immigrant rhetoric.

I've used it incorrectly in this thread as well, but H1Bs are not immigrant visas. Ending birth-right citizenship would change the game by stopping the US born children of people on work visas from being a justification for their parents to remain in the country after the visa expires and slow down illegal immigration as well, but it won't do much to discourage the wage suppression and discrimination. A significant tax on remittances and/or a significant tax on H1B salaries to equalize costs to a domestic hire would address it, but I share your sentiment that this is unlikely given that Black Rock and friends are in favor of H1Bs and any proposals are probably bargaining chips for the other things Trump wants.

tragabigzanda wrote:Has there been any discussion about H2Bs, J1s, etc?

I think they will get there. What's a little surprising is the silence from so many workers rights groups. This is a great moment for them to influence Trump's approach and yet... nothing.

tragabigzanda wrote:lol, thanks Bi3 — the L-1 is a new one for me, though I assume there are a myriad of work arounds to whatever specific visa becomes the cause du jour.

My wife and I were discussing this last night, and she said her experience is that most H1Bs go to students who then matriculate into the workforce, using the existing visa to smooth the path for the new corporate sponsor. I’m not sure how true that is at scale?

I'm just learning now so I don't know, but the bold part would be an interesting data point to see for H1B visas. How many actually go on to be employees of their sponsoring company and how has that changed over time? Might be a way to figure out when and how the system was corrupted.

Trump agreeing with Elon on expanding H1Bs is unexpected given MAGA rhetoric as recently as October condemning the program's current state. Gonna be interesting to see how his base reacts to this betrayal.