Red Mosquito

simple schoolboy wrote:

Dev wrote:

simple schoolboy wrote:

Dev wrote:

simple schoolboy wrote:

Dev wrote:

simple schoolboy wrote:

Dev wrote:Many trans regret this and commit suicide that is the biggest reason we have to fight this. They are brainsashing our kids to be trans so that our kids commit suicide because the woke are necrophiliacs.

This is a great take on the objection to this, you are very good at understanding the position your political opponents actually take.

How about: the loudest trans activists that are happy with their transition felt that the system held them back from becoming their true selves and reject any and all gatekeeping.

Their interest lies in those harmed by gatekeeping, all other considerations are secondary.

Their opposition suggests some level of gatekeeping is appropriate, especially for minors. When co-morbidities are present it might be wise to pump the brakes a bit and not immediately go to social/ medical transition.

The current zeitgeist is: if you don't feel comfortable in your own skin, you're trans. Maybe you have other stuff going on and that alternate gender ID affirmation shouldn't be step one as so many organizations are embracing whole heartedly.

What other types of gatekeeping are you in favor of? Maybe we should gatekeep people from having homosexual relationships too? Maybe those people also don't know what they are doing and there could be dire consequences?

Medical interventions are largely gatekept. You can't generally walk up to a surgeon and get a lung removed after self IDing as a one lunged person. If you've become a libertarian all of the sudden and believe that medical treatment should be entirely patient directed than good for you, I guess.

There's a grey area for social transition in minors I'll grant.

The medical establishment: you must have thousands enrolled in double blind studies and spend billions of dollars before a new medication is approved.

Trans community: I self ID as the opposite gender.

The medical establishment: no need for studies, self ID is far more reliable than any of that study business, what medical intervention would you like today?

So seems like the moral issue for you is people doing harm to themselves. If so why not take the same interest in meth addicts, for example?

I have the same interest in Meth addicts and the severely mentally ill, but the issue is not so much harm as competency/ agency. If the Meth addicts are so out of their mind they can't be considered to have agency the state should step in.

If a 25 year old is adamant they are trans, go nuts on surgeries so long as they don't immediately go on SSDI as a result of said surgeries.

If state agencies are pushing particular treatment options on minors without parental consent, those minors need to be emancipated through the normal court process. Experiencing dysphoria is not a basis for emancipation by itself.

The harm concern comes from the total lack of normal procedures for treatment, not the specifics of treatment. Do trans suicides go down after surgery? We only have very murky numbers on this and no strong signals either way.

I am not seeing the same interest and attention being given to meth addicts or other people hurting themselves. This is a very politicized issue for mysterious reasons. For that matter, it would be absurd and unethical to attempt to police people who are potentially hurting themselves due to issues of competentcy/agency. I think the only issue we really need to explore is people are so upset about trans people gaining rights. Do you even know a single trans person? Because I do know people who have transitioned and seem to be in a better place now. They are living their truths. Stop trying to stand in the way of that because of your own inherent perversions.

Is there something wrong with the expectation that the state not kidnap your child in order to perform medical interventions that have not been studied very well?

Hey kid, congrats on your self-ID. We'll help you do something about that when your brain is slightly more mature. Puberty blockers and cross sex hormones are not reversible and will result in mentally stunted adults with who knows what medical complications. Seems like medical malpractice.

Medical malpractice is the standard. Just look at big pharma for example.

Is it, Dev? That’s a bit much.

I don’t think people have a problem with Trans rights, I think it’s a confusing issue and people have questions. The main one involves kids. I have 3 kids ranging from 7-12 and it seems really crazy to me to think they’re informed or capable enough to make decisions like these. They haven’t even had a chance to know their bodies yet. Then there is the (less important) issue of sports. Are we, in the name of Trans rights, going to sit there and pretend that the trans swimmer who is twice the size of the bio females had no advantage? These things need to be talked about, and people’s concerns should be taken seriously. I try to be as liberal and open as possible, but even I struggle with this.

Let me assure you that Ivy league swim meets do not need to be talked about.

Mickey wrote:Let me assure you that Ivy league swim meets do not need to be talked about.

Penn? How does that compare to Brown in the bottom of the Ivy rankings? Might as well make Duke and Rice official members.

Edit: I think Varsity Blues did a good job of showing the importance of athletic scholarships for Ivy & lesser private colleges. The less than bright children of families with money but without legacy scholarships only really have a chance with athletics. Leah Thomas transitioned after attending, but presumably could have taken the spot of a natal female if she had transitioned in highschool, and whose college essay about finding their true self in their authentic gender ID would have been a shoe in.

Won't someone please think of the less than bright cisgender daughters of families with money but without legacy scholarships!

Mickey wrote:Won't someone please think of the less than bright cisgender daughters of families with money but without legacy scholarships!

That they might be someone other than a Autogenophile is one thing in their favor, sure.

This is the same spirit of "fuck young white male authors"

At some point you want the best to move forward in their development, unless you're disparate impact pilled.

Rob wrote:. Are we, in the name of Trans rights, going to sit there and pretend that the trans swimmer who is twice the size of the bio females had no advantage?

This argument will carry more weight when a 230lb trans woman swimmer starts winning some meets.

Rob wrote:Is it, Dev? That’s a bit much.

I don’t think people have a problem with Trans rights, I think it’s a confusing issue and people have questions. The main one involves kids. I have 3 kids ranging from 7-12 and it seems really crazy to me to think they’re informed or capable enough to make decisions like these. They haven’t even had a chance to know their bodies yet.

Agree, the majority of parents want their kids to be happy, supported, and feel lovedno matter what their gender/sexuality may be. Personally I can't imagine a scenario where I would love my kids less because they are struggling with something like this. And with all due respect to the MickB klan, it's not anti-trans to want to slow down and consider that a preteen's life experiences and psychology can be unique and pretty complex, far more than what a teacher or parent might understand, and that schools and social workers and governments shouldn't be pushing any general answer outside of independent evaluation and parental consent for each individual child.

This is also why I think the messaging that "gender affirmation is suicide prevention" is so powerful and can be dangerous. It shortcuts everything that leads up to the point where the child can understand themselves and develop their own unique identity, trans or not. If the child is struggling, moving too quickly to affirmation due to a belief that inaction would lead to suicide doesn't actually help the child. What that should say is "mental health is suicide prevention" because proper mental health evaluation includes helping the young person understand themselves from the standpoint of sexuality and gender.

Homeschool your kids.

simple schoolboy wrote:

Mickey wrote:Won't someone please think of the less than bright cisgender daughters of families with money but without legacy scholarships!

That they might be someone other than a Autogenophile is one thing in their favor, sure.

This is the same spirit of "fuck young white male authors"

At some point you want the best to move forward in their development, unless you're disparate impact pilled.

I don't know about that... but goddamn if the entirety of modern leftism isn't captured in that sentence.

BurtReynolds wrote:Homeschool your kids.

with idiocy running so rampant in this country? holy fuck is the future screwed

simple schoolboy wrote:

Mickey wrote:Won't someone please think of the less than bright cisgender daughters of families with money but without legacy scholarships!

That they might be someone other than a Autogenophile is one thing in their favor, sure.

This is the same spirit of "fuck young white male authors"

At some point you want the best to move forward in their development, unless you're disparate impact pilled.

Is this white supremacy?

Peeps wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:Homeschool your kids.

with idiocy running so rampant in this country? holy fuck is the future screwed

Yes. Precisely.

spike wrote:

simple schoolboy wrote:

Mickey wrote:Won't someone please think of the less than bright cisgender daughters of families with money but without legacy scholarships!

That they might be someone other than a Autogenophile is one thing in their favor, sure.

This is the same spirit of "fuck young white male authors"

At some point you want the best to move forward in their development, unless you're disparate impact pilled.

Is this white supremacy?

I have it on good authority that concepts such as merit and quality are white supremacist.

simple schoolboy wrote:

Mickey wrote:Let me assure you that Ivy league swim meets do not need to be talked about.

Penn? How does that compare to Brown in the bottom of the Ivy rankings? Might as well make Duke and Rice official members.

Edit: I think Varsity Blues did a good job of showing the importance of athletic scholarships for Ivy & lesser private colleges. The less than bright children of families with money but without legacy scholarships only really have a chance with athletics. Leah Thomas transitioned after attending, but presumably could have taken the spot of a natal female if she had transitioned in highschool, and whose college essay about finding their true self in their authentic gender ID would have been a shoe in.

Didn't feel like typing this up last night, but it bears mentioning in the context of this unbelievably stupid parade of posts:

The Ivy League does not offer athletic scholarships.

So there's no real money on the table when you concern-troll about the fairness of Lia (not Leah) Thomas taking another student's spot. The Ivys do offer special admissions considerations each year for a limited number of student-athletes. I'm no expert on this shit but I think for football they get up to 30 spots, and it's far fewer for other sports. In all cases, it can only make up for a slight deficiency in a student's record--maybe an underwhelming SAT score. As you noted, Lia transitioned after admission, so this doubly doesn't apply, but let's assume otherwise--you're talking about one high-achieving but not quite elite student (a trans swimmer) being admitted to one of the most selective schools on the planet (the PMC production factory) over another high-achieving but, again, not quite elite student (a cisgender swimmer). Not something I give a shit about, not something worth discussing--not because "fuck whitey" or whatever imagined Twitter belief you want to ascribe to me, but because the inverse scenario would mean that trans students are barred from being considered student-athletes at the PMC factory, which seems like at least as harmful and exclusionary of a policy, if not more-so. So I don't care to adjudicate between two imperfect policies with minimal reach in a broader landscape of college admissions that is nakedly unfair in much more significant ways. The losing student--who, again, is entirely made-up and does not exist!--will be just fine going to Duke or Georgetown.

Double post

Mickey, is there any part of you that would pause when a 19-21 year old “Man” decided he wasn’t a man and then transitioned only to go on and dominate women sports? I’m a liberal guy, I just want everyone happy. I’ll call you whatever pronoun you want and won’t think twice. So tell me why I don’t feel so good about this development. The fact that it’s Ivy League and therefore not associated with scholarship isn’t a relevant detail to me. It’s about people like Lia Thomas - a person I do think deserves dignity and equal opportunity.

How would I ever be able to tell you why you feel the way you do? Go see a therapist.

Rob wrote:Mickey, is there any part of you that would pause when a 19-21 year old “Man” decided he wasn’t a man and then transitioned only to go on and dominate women sports? I’m a liberal guy, I just want everyone happy. I’ll call you whatever pronoun you want and won’t think twice. So tell me why I don’t feel so good about this development. The fact that it’s Ivy League and therefore not associated with scholarship isn’t a relevant detail to me. It’s about people like Lia Thomas - a person I do think deserves dignity and equal opportunity.

In the grand scheme, it’s just sports.

I appreciate your points of view, guys. I worry about progressive politics going too far, too fast and becoming counterproductive. This RM sub-forum is (I assume) a pretty good resource for us. We practice (or read) political debate every day. I can’t even tell you how much I’ve learned from this place.

I honestly don’t give a fuck about swimming competitions in general, let alone Lia Thomas. That story has zero to do with me, I wouldn’t know about it unless someone told me. But, Trans + sports (athletics) does present an issue, doesn’t it? Why do people shy away?