Red Mosquito

Sure they can.

Art can easily be objectively good, it can be crafted well. The question is not whether or not a work of art is good, but rather how that objective goodness relates to one's appreciation of the art. It's obviously not the case that a work of art's objective "goodness of craftsmanship" (if you will) relates to or causes directly one's level of appreciation for the work of art, but most likely in a more indirect way as only a part of the equation of art appreciation.

It is not even possible for art to be objectively "crafted well," though. Even that is a subjective judgment.

LoathedVermin72 wrote:It is not even possible for art to be objectively "crafted well," though. Even that is a subjective judgment.

An amazing sculpture is, I'd say, something that can easily be viewed as being "crafted well," the precision, the attention to detail, the chosen proportions, the intention. These qualities can easily be judged as being crafted well or carelessly or whatever. Whether or not this craftsmanship maps on to whether or not one cares for the work of art is a different question.

Leatherhead wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:It is not even possible for art to be objectively "crafted well," though. Even that is a subjective judgment.

An amazing sculpture is, I'd say, something that can easily be viewed as being "crafted well," the precision, the attention to detail, the chosen proportions, the intention. These qualities can easily be judged as being crafted well or carelessly or whatever. Whether or not this craftsmanship maps on to whether or not one cares for the work of art is a different question.

And that's your subjective opinion. Someone else could say a different statue has those qualities, but you might disagree.

This really isn't complicated, guys.

Leatherhead wrote:An amazing sculpture is, I'd say, something that can easily be viewed as being "crafted well," the precision, the attention to detail, the chosen proportions, the intention. These qualities can easily be judged as being crafted well or carelessly or whatever. Whether or not this craftsmanship maps on to whether or not one cares for the work of art is a different question.

I can get behind this.

"Judged" = subjective

The Beach Boys do nothing for me.

I really can't believe this is an actual conversation. This is basic shit.

BurtReynolds wrote:The Beach Boys do nothing for me.

With the exception of a very small handful of tunes, I agree.

God Only Knows is dreary as hell.

Birds in Hell wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:The Beach Boys do nothing for me.

With the exception of a very small handful of tunes, I agree.

God Only Knows is dreary as hell.

Most of Pet Sounds is awful.

Well at least we've transitioned from basic-ass arguments to basic-ass opinions.

theplatypus wrote:Well at least we've transitioned from basic-ass arguments to basic-ass opinions.

Unpopular

LetMeSleep wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:The Beach Boys do nothing for me.

With the exception of a very small handful of tunes, I agree.

God Only Knows is dreary as hell.

Most of Pet Sounds is awful.

word

what I'm taking from Leatherhead, and this has been the centerpiece of large RM discussions before, is that there are varying objective levels of craftsmanship that go into creating things. This progression of ability may be acquired through thousands of hours practicing at said art, and maybe someone has a more natural proclivity for creation, but there's a often discernible difference between an artist (in any field) that is well-practiced in any form versus someone who is not. None of that has anything to do with subjectivity.

tragabigzanda wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:

LetMeSleep wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:The Beach Boys do nothing for me.

With the exception of a very small handful of tunes, I agree.

God Only Knows is dreary as hell.

Most of Pet Sounds is awful.

word

Shock and awe at this.

yeah, those guys are dumb. pet sounds / beach boys are great.

Kaius wrote:what I'm taking from Leatherhead, and this has been the centerpiece of large RM discussions before, is that there are varying objective levels of craftsmanship that go into creating things. This progression of ability may be acquired through thousands of hours practicing at said art, and maybe someone has a more natural proclivity for creation, but there's a often discernible difference between an artist (in any field) that is well-practiced in any form versus someone who is not. None of that has anything to do with subjectivity.

But that doesn't make the art they make objectively good or bad - just objectively practiced. At the end of the day, people can still disagree on whether the techniques they use are effective. Again, in art, there really is no way to quantify things like craftsmanship. You're going to be making a personal judgment at some point, regardless of how "objective" you think your judgment is.

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

Kaius wrote:what I'm taking from Leatherhead, and this has been the centerpiece of large RM discussions before, is that there are varying objective levels of craftsmanship that go into creating things. This progression of ability may be acquired through thousands of hours practicing at said art, and maybe someone has a more natural proclivity for creation, but there's a often discernible difference between an artist (in any field) that is well-practiced in any form versus someone who is not. None of that has anything to do with subjectivity.

But that doesn't make the art they make objectively good or bad - just objectively practiced. At the end of the day, people can still disagree on whether the techniques they use are effective. Again, in art, there really is no way to quantify things like craftsmanship. You're going to be making a personal judgment at some point, regardless of how "objective" you think your judgment is.

It seems your definition of "Good" or "Bad" is loaded with notions of an audience having to have a certain response to the art. If the intention of the artist is to make a box, and they make a box that has perfectly symmetrical measurements, every adjoining piece is flush to each other, has been sanded to be super smooth, paint and finish are as smooth as can be and completely free of nicks and/or blemishes, then it'd be pretty hard to say this box art was not crafted well, since these qualities are easily objectively measured. Whether or not anyone cares about or likes this box is a different question, but there's no doubt this box is crafted well. The box succeeds in the artist's intentions of being a box. If the box fell apart after minimal use, it would not be crafted well.