Red Mosquito

My favorite Pearl Jam album and one of my personal favorite albums of all time: No Code.

Producer: Brendan O'Brien

The best Pearl Jam album: Vitalogy

Producer: Brendan O'Brien

The Pearl Jam fanboi favorite album: Yield

Producer: Brendan O'Brien

So how can BOB be the problem when he is clearly also the solution? For whatever reason ST/Avocado/Blue and Backspacer were the albums these guys wanted to make. They succeeded on their terms and failed according to the fanbois because these albums don't have the supposed gravitas of the earlier work. I think these guys are in a genuinely good place in their lives. They like each other and they are excited to make music. Unlike U2 I don't think they are artistically bankrupt and cashing in chips. PJ is making happier, catchier music. Are we interested? Maybe not. Personally, I was intrigued by Backspacer because for the first time in their career both my wife and daughter would listen to Pearl Jam. The band was attempting to make their music accessible without sucking. Yes, that's an entirely new and lame demographic but fucking everyone liked the Beatles so possibly PJ is trying to hone in on a more universal appeal that doesn't suck. I'm giving them a chance. You either quit (Zeppelin) and your sound is locked for all time or you change (Dylan who pissed off his fan base too many times to count) and keep searching musically. Pearl Jam very capable of going into a time machine and remaking No Code / Vitalogy albeit with worse lyrics. I think the lyrics are gone forever sadly as family life has sapped Ed of the semi-illiterate-savant-tortured soul abilities of youth.

Go Lightning Bolt! Go!

MemoFromTurner wrote:My favorite Pearl Jam album and one of my personal favorite albums of all time: No Code.

Producer: Brendan O'Brien

The best Pearl Jam album: Vitalogy

Producer: Brendan O'Brien

The Pearl Jam fanboi favorite album: Yield

Producer: Brendan O'Brien

So how can BOB be the problem when he is clearly also the solution? For whatever reason ST/Avocado/Blue and Backspacer were the albums these guys wanted to make. They succeeded on their terms and failed according to the fanbois because these albums don't have the supposed gravitas of the earlier work. I think these guys are in a genuinely good place in their lives. They like each other and they are excited to make music. Unlike U2 I don't think they are artistically bankrupt and cashing in chips. PJ is making happier, catchier music. Are we interested? Maybe not. Personally, I was intrigued by Backspacer because for the first time in their career both my wife and daughter would listen to Pearl Jam. The band was attempting to make their music accessible without sucking. Yes, that's an entirely new and lame demographic but fucking everyone liked the Beatles so possibly PJ is trying to hone in on a more universal appeal that doesn't suck. I'm giving them a chance. You either quit (Zeppelin) and your sound is locked for all time or you change (Dylan who pissed off his fan base too many times to count) and keep searching musically. Pearl Jam very capable of going into a time machine and remaking No Code / Vitalogy albeit with worse lyrics. I think the lyrics are gone forever sadly as family life has sapped Ed of the semi-illiterate-savant-tortured soul abilities of youth.

Go Lightning Bolt! Go!

Producers always get a lot of blame for albums people don't like, but rarely get the credit when things turn out well.

My personal philosophy on this is that the buck stops with the artist. BOB pushing too much of a poppy sound? Well, if that's not what the artist wants then they can say no, push back, even fire the producer. A lot of what the producer is doing is probably in response to ideas and desires the artist has expressed anyway.

The DMB fan community went through this with a run of albums, hating on Glen Ballard and Mark Batson. But the band hired those guys and made the choice to make albums that way. An established act isn't getting pushed around by their producer (or, if they are, that's an even worse sign).

While I'm no fan of BOB's work over the past decade, both with PJ and TGA, I agree that the artist should get the blame as they choose and allow the producer to do his thing. However I'd like to see BOB banned from future work with any bands I dig since I can't stand his recent "sound". WAY too much unnecessary stuff going on that neuters the power of the music....both backspacer and handwritten serve as example A)!

mray10 wrote:

MemoFromTurner wrote:My favorite Pearl Jam album and one of my personal favorite albums of all time: No Code.

Producer: Brendan O'Brien

The best Pearl Jam album: Vitalogy

Producer: Brendan O'Brien

The Pearl Jam fanboi favorite album: Yield

Producer: Brendan O'Brien

So how can BOB be the problem when he is clearly also the solution? For whatever reason ST/Avocado/Blue and Backspacer were the albums these guys wanted to make. They succeeded on their terms and failed according to the fanbois because these albums don't have the supposed gravitas of the earlier work. I think these guys are in a genuinely good place in their lives. They like each other and they are excited to make music. Unlike U2 I don't think they are artistically bankrupt and cashing in chips. PJ is making happier, catchier music. Are we interested? Maybe not. Personally, I was intrigued by Backspacer because for the first time in their career both my wife and daughter would listen to Pearl Jam. The band was attempting to make their music accessible without sucking. Yes, that's an entirely new and lame demographic but fucking everyone liked the Beatles so possibly PJ is trying to hone in on a more universal appeal that doesn't suck. I'm giving them a chance. You either quit (Zeppelin) and your sound is locked for all time or you change (Dylan who pissed off his fan base too many times to count) and keep searching musically. Pearl Jam very capable of going into a time machine and remaking No Code / Vitalogy albeit with worse lyrics. I think the lyrics are gone forever sadly as family life has sapped Ed of the semi-illiterate-savant-tortured soul abilities of youth.

Go Lightning Bolt! Go!

Producers always get a lot of blame for albums people don't like, but rarely get the credit when things turn out well.

My personal philosophy on this is that the buck stops with the artist. BOB pushing too much of a poppy sound? Well, if that's not what the artist wants then they can say no, push back, even fire the producer. A lot of what the producer is doing is probably in response to ideas and desires the artist has expressed anyway.

The DMB fan community went through this with a run of albums, hating on Glen Ballard and Mark Batson. But the band hired those guys and made the choice to make albums that way. An established act isn't getting pushed around by their producer (or, if they are, that's an even worse sign).

what dave matthews band did was completely different. dave matthews wrote 2 albums w/ ballard and batson, and then had his band come in and record. i almost dont consider them dave matthews band albums.

I think part of the reason BOB takes so much shit from the "fanboi" community is because of his excellent work on the albums you mentioned. Vitalogy, Yield and No Code are three of their best sounding albums. They're brilliantly produced. We know this guy can do it. That's what makes the production on Backspacer and especially S/T so disappointing.

And regardless of how you feel about the quality of the songs themselves, I don't think anyone will argue that there is a dramatic negative change in the way S/T sounds compared to Yield and No Code and Vitalogy. That's my biggest problem with the self titled album. The songs sound tinny and thin and over compressed. They don't have room to breathe.

EDIT: SHUT UP DURDEN, BO'B DIDN'T EVEN PRODUCE S/T!!!!!



Yeah, so why do people hate him so much?

There's so much BoB hate, he even gets blamed for S/T!

After all the shit we learned in PJ20 I'm convinced they made great albums despite BoB, not because of him.

warehouse wrote:

mray10 wrote:

MemoFromTurner wrote:My favorite Pearl Jam album and one of my personal favorite albums of all time: No Code.

Producer: Brendan O'Brien

The best Pearl Jam album: Vitalogy

Producer: Brendan O'Brien

The Pearl Jam fanboi favorite album: Yield

Producer: Brendan O'Brien

So how can BOB be the problem when he is clearly also the solution? For whatever reason ST/Avocado/Blue and Backspacer were the albums these guys wanted to make. They succeeded on their terms and failed according to the fanbois because these albums don't have the supposed gravitas of the earlier work. I think these guys are in a genuinely good place in their lives. They like each other and they are excited to make music. Unlike U2 I don't think they are artistically bankrupt and cashing in chips. PJ is making happier, catchier music. Are we interested? Maybe not. Personally, I was intrigued by Backspacer because for the first time in their career both my wife and daughter would listen to Pearl Jam. The band was attempting to make their music accessible without sucking. Yes, that's an entirely new and lame demographic but fucking everyone liked the Beatles so possibly PJ is trying to hone in on a more universal appeal that doesn't suck. I'm giving them a chance. You either quit (Zeppelin) and your sound is locked for all time or you change (Dylan who pissed off his fan base too many times to count) and keep searching musically. Pearl Jam very capable of going into a time machine and remaking No Code / Vitalogy albeit with worse lyrics. I think the lyrics are gone forever sadly as family life has sapped Ed of the semi-illiterate-savant-tortured soul abilities of youth.

Go Lightning Bolt! Go!

Producers always get a lot of blame for albums people don't like, but rarely get the credit when things turn out well.

My personal philosophy on this is that the buck stops with the artist. BOB pushing too much of a poppy sound? Well, if that's not what the artist wants then they can say no, push back, even fire the producer. A lot of what the producer is doing is probably in response to ideas and desires the artist has expressed anyway.

The DMB fan community went through this with a run of albums, hating on Glen Ballard and Mark Batson. But the band hired those guys and made the choice to make albums that way. An established act isn't getting pushed around by their producer (or, if they are, that's an even worse sign).

what dave matthews band did was completely different. dave matthews wrote 2 albums w/ ballard and batson, and then had his band come in and record. i almost dont consider them dave matthews band albums.

To be fair, DM writes a majority of the lyrics (and completely composed UTTAD minus #34) and sessions surround those. There isn't much known about the Everyday sessions, other than tension, but Stand Up certainly had creative sessions though the writing credit did go to DM and Batson. DMB has also used six producers in the studio with markedly different results.

And I'll agree with what will most likely be the consensus in that the final output should be judged against the band along with the producer and not solely the producer.

oasisfan35 wrote:

warehouse wrote:

mray10 wrote:

MemoFromTurner wrote:My favorite Pearl Jam album and one of my personal favorite albums of all time: No Code.

Producer: Brendan O'Brien

The best Pearl Jam album: Vitalogy

Producer: Brendan O'Brien

The Pearl Jam fanboi favorite album: Yield

Producer: Brendan O'Brien

So how can BOB be the problem when he is clearly also the solution? For whatever reason ST/Avocado/Blue and Backspacer were the albums these guys wanted to make. They succeeded on their terms and failed according to the fanbois because these albums don't have the supposed gravitas of the earlier work. I think these guys are in a genuinely good place in their lives. They like each other and they are excited to make music. Unlike U2 I don't think they are artistically bankrupt and cashing in chips. PJ is making happier, catchier music. Are we interested? Maybe not. Personally, I was intrigued by Backspacer because for the first time in their career both my wife and daughter would listen to Pearl Jam. The band was attempting to make their music accessible without sucking. Yes, that's an entirely new and lame demographic but fucking everyone liked the Beatles so possibly PJ is trying to hone in on a more universal appeal that doesn't suck. I'm giving them a chance. You either quit (Zeppelin) and your sound is locked for all time or you change (Dylan who pissed off his fan base too many times to count) and keep searching musically. Pearl Jam very capable of going into a time machine and remaking No Code / Vitalogy albeit with worse lyrics. I think the lyrics are gone forever sadly as family life has sapped Ed of the semi-illiterate-savant-tortured soul abilities of youth.

Go Lightning Bolt! Go!

Producers always get a lot of blame for albums people don't like, but rarely get the credit when things turn out well.

My personal philosophy on this is that the buck stops with the artist. BOB pushing too much of a poppy sound? Well, if that's not what the artist wants then they can say no, push back, even fire the producer. A lot of what the producer is doing is probably in response to ideas and desires the artist has expressed anyway.

The DMB fan community went through this with a run of albums, hating on Glen Ballard and Mark Batson. But the band hired those guys and made the choice to make albums that way. An established act isn't getting pushed around by their producer (or, if they are, that's an even worse sign).

what dave matthews band did was completely different. dave matthews wrote 2 albums w/ ballard and batson, and then had his band come in and record. i almost dont consider them dave matthews band albums.

To be fair, DM writes a majority of the lyrics (and completely composed UTTAD minus #34) and sessions surround those. There isn't much known about the Everyday sessions, other than tension, but Stand Up certainly had creative sessions though the writing credit did go to DM and Batson. DMB has also used six producers in the studio with markedly different results.

And I'll agree with what will most likely be the consensus in that the final output should be judged against the band along with the producer and not solely the producer.

also to be fair, dave matthews is the least talented member of his band and should never write w/ producers again. they should make every record they way they made 'big whiskey'.

cutuphalfdead wrote:After all the shit we learned in PJ20 I'm convinced they made great albums despite BoB, not because of him.

This.
This discussion needs a premise. There are bands that can't write and arrange albums without external help and those (like PJ) who can. When was announced that Backspacer was going to be produced by O'Brien the assumption on this board was that he was (or did on previous collaborations) going to be the 1st kind of producer. Pearl Jam needs a good mixing and mastering engineer not a producer that writes or arranges most of the music for them.

Farmer John wrote:There's so much BoB hate, he even gets blamed for S/T!

How do we know that Binaural doesn't sound as good as it does because of BoB?

Ed and and Matt wrote The Fixer, not BoB.

BoB is the one that made Jeff and Matt sounds come across so well on Backspacer.

I like your style OP.

So BO'B's produced five of their nine albums, right? (Vs, Vitalogy, No Code, Yield, Backspacer). And he's got mixing credits on Riot Act and Binaural. All of those albums (except one, Backspacer) sound great. The guy's really only missed once. And his miss was an improvement over their previous album which he had nothing to do with.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with the guy really.

Farmer John wrote:There's so much BoB hate, he even gets blamed for S/T!

I know, right?!

Sorry about that. I lost my goddamn mind for a minute. I was doing seven things at once.

waiting for McParadigm...

Farmer John wrote:There's so much BoB hate, he even gets blamed for S/T!

Of course its his fault.

mray10 wrote:

MemoFromTurner wrote:My favorite Pearl Jam album and one of my personal favorite albums of all time: No Code.

Producer: Brendan O'Brien

The best Pearl Jam album: Vitalogy

Producer: Brendan O'Brien

The Pearl Jam fanboi favorite album: Yield

Producer: Brendan O'Brien

So how can BOB be the problem when he is clearly also the solution? For whatever reason ST/Avocado/Blue and Backspacer were the albums these guys wanted to make. They succeeded on their terms and failed according to the fanbois because these albums don't have the supposed gravitas of the earlier work. I think these guys are in a genuinely good place in their lives. They like each other and they are excited to make music. Unlike U2 I don't think they are artistically bankrupt and cashing in chips. PJ is making happier, catchier music. Are we interested? Maybe not. Personally, I was intrigued by Backspacer because for the first time in their career both my wife and daughter would listen to Pearl Jam. The band was attempting to make their music accessible without sucking. Yes, that's an entirely new and lame demographic but fucking everyone liked the Beatles so possibly PJ is trying to hone in on a more universal appeal that doesn't suck. I'm giving them a chance. You either quit (Zeppelin) and your sound is locked for all time or you change (Dylan who pissed off his fan base too many times to count) and keep searching musically. Pearl Jam very capable of going into a time machine and remaking No Code / Vitalogy albeit with worse lyrics. I think the lyrics are gone forever sadly as family life has sapped Ed of the semi-illiterate-savant-tortured soul abilities of youth.

Go Lightning Bolt! Go!

Producers always get a lot of blame for albums people don't like, but rarely get the credit when things turn out well.

My personal philosophy on this is that the buck stops with the artist. BOB pushing too much of a poppy sound? Well, if that's not what the artist wants then they can say no, push back, even fire the producer. A lot of what the producer is doing is probably in response to ideas and desires the artist has expressed anyway.

The DMB fan community went through this with a run of albums, hating on Glen Ballard and Mark Batson. But the band hired those guys and made the choice to make albums that way. An established act isn't getting pushed around by their producer (or, if they are, that's an even worse sign).

I don't think they're being pushed around. I just don't think they have high demands. They want people to like and buy their music, that's it. They have no deep artist ambition anymore and Brendan O'Brien these days is the kind of indulgent 'yes man' who will hear what they're vaguely after and do that for them, suggest loads of ideas to make a saleable album and just post the result afterwards. I think they care about the product but that's what it is, a product. And it's not one they're slavishly making; O'Brien is probably just as involved in the creative process, if not more. PJ says what they want and he gets it done, which means that new PJ albums are effectively also Brendan O'Brien albums. PJ are perfectly happy with this arrangement because it means they don't have to do a great deal or have any conflict.

I wonder if there's a Bob Rock/St. Anger thread on Metallica's board.

Mine wrote:

cutuphalfdead wrote:After all the shit we learned in PJ20 I'm convinced they made great albums despite BoB, not because of him.

This.
This discussion needs a premise. There are bands that can't write and arrange albums without external help and those (like PJ) who can. When was announced that Backspacer was going to be produced by O'Brien the assumption on this board was that he was (or did on previous collaborations) going to be the 1st kind of producer. Pearl Jam needs a good mixing and mastering engineer not a producer that writes or arranges most of the music for them.

All of this. O'Brien is the kind of producer who wants to be involved from the word go. We know this from what he's said, and we have the evidence of confirmation from Ed and the music, which is clearly very different to what they produced before. Latter day O'Brien suits latter day Pearl Jam down to the ground.

Saying Brendan isn't detrimental to the new records because he produced Vitalogy is like saying Pearl Jam's new songs must be really good songs, because after all they're the guys who wrote Vitalogy. Or, you could equate it to claiming that Spielberg couldn't possibly be the problem with Crystal Skull, because he made...

Meh.

Producers change over time, just like artists do. And, like anybody in a creative field, their work tomorrow is influenced by the work they do today...and by where they are in their life.

Right now, we're talking about a guy who is constantly being lifted up among recording engineers and professionals as a former master who is now embarrassing himself. His work the last few years with other artists, beyond Pearl Jam, has been the subject of frequent criticism for lazy or poor production. Basically, the only projects he's connected with that don't end up getting pointed out are the ones where he's working with a really great sound engineer who has a history with the band (AC/DC's Black Ice) or where the band's artistic drive and direction is so intense that his input is appropriately reduced (Mastodon).

I'm not saying he's the reason Pearl Jam is mediocre now...but he is a cog in the disappointment machine, and it takes every cog running full steam to keep that thing running this efficiently.

You guys have been in my 'Other Bands' thread about the new Brendan O'Brien and Brandon Boyd collab, right? That's the kind of producer O'Brien is. He wants some of the limelight. Why do you think he played a stupid keyboard part on FD?